Christopher Hitchens agrees to be waterboarded for Vanity Fair. Video (which I can’t seem to embed) here. Malcolm Nance, a friend of mine who has been waterboarded as part of his old SERE training and whom instructed Naval special forces how to endure it, described its brutality in gruesome detail to Congress last year.
But it’s different to see it. In April, the Windy reported on Amnesty International’s waterboarding video. An earlier one appeared on Keith Olbermann’s show. It’s important to see this, again and again and again, to combat what I believe Hitchens used to call "the sin of euphemism." When John Yoo says the "circumstances" determine if waterboarding is torture if it’s done to U.S. troops or when Michael Mukasey says waterboarding is "repugnant" but may not be torture or when Mike McConnell says it’s torture to him only because of his bad sinuses, that euphemism embeds itself into the American character. Today we learned from the New York Times that one of the places of origin of what George W. Bush euphemistically calls "enhanced interrogation" is Maoist China. What could be more un-American? What could be more anti-American? And what sort of person would apologize for this?
The most gruesome thing about Hitchens’ video is watching the slow, methodic preparation for his torture. See him hooded, strapped to the board, bonds squeezing his fat chest and stomach. See the hooded interrogator slowly explaining to him about non-verbal signals for "unendurable stress." See the men in khakis and polo shirts daintily putting a towel over Hitchens’ hooded face. See his awful expression and gasping red face as he gives up within seconds. And recognize that the men who were waterboarded — whose waterboarding means, in a society allegedly devoted to the rule of law, that they will never be successfully prosecuted in any recognizable system of justice — never had the baseline mercies that these terrifying scenes nevertheless indicated Hitchens enjoyed.
Please don’t say anything in comments like "it’s good that warmonger was waterboarded." Some days I feel that way as well. Most days, actually. But ask yourself: does venting such expressions affirm or undermine your humanity?
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I like Hitchens. Sure he’s a tit for holding onto that “but Iraq met about uranium in 1991″ meme, but he’s got a set of balls on him and he doesn’t mind laying the boots into someone who deserves it when everyone else is too polite to.
ps. Good piece by Bearden in the Windy i don’t think i saw here.
I can’t believe Hitchens was stupid enough to risk death. His health can’t be that good, given his alcoholism. He isn’t an frat boy taking a dare, either. He must have believed it wasn’t as bad as us lefties (and the experts) make it out to be. I’m not sure one should give him kudos for sheer stupidity.
But really, is it waterboarding when you KNOW you can stop it just by giving a sign that it feels really scary, and STOP it right now?
People who are being waterboarded for real don’t have the “opt out” part of the process.
BIG difference.
i think a part of it is that people think –well, they survived, didn’t kill them did it?
as if the body surviving is the only thing that mattered. never mind what the mind has lost, they are still ’whole’…..look ok to me…
now, take someone who lost an arm or a leg, or something else physical…..and their mind is intact, people look at them like they have lost….pity them. help them. not whole.
totally backwards.
i will never understand the thinking that surviving something makes you stronger, it doesn’t necessarily make you ’stronger’ it makes you different, changes you……either physically or mentally…i think people think that as long as the body isn’t harmed in any way. even though your mental state and emotions is shattered, no matter, you survived it, no blood, you’re ok, move on. they ask them, didn’t you learn from it? look what you gained from the experience…….
but when it’s physical damage it’s a ’given’ that there was a loss, and must be empathized, that somehow it’s not ok to be mentally fine with a physical defect.
as long as someone ’looks ok’, i don’t think they’re gonna get the same outrage for what has been done to them as someone who is visibly disfigured from torture.
my .02c
I think you’ll find he did it for the reason he’ll explain with prefix in every subsequent discussion of it. “Well I have been…” “Until you have been…”. Certainly is a one up in debates, which he enjoys.
Still it does demonstrate something. Not as much as having him confess to something would have, but there you go.
Yeah it’s called “clean torture”, and that’s why it’s used. Studied at length here:
amazon.com/Torture-Democracy-Darius-Rejali/dp/0691114226/ref=pd_sim_b_11
Thank you for sharing that.
I appreciate his apparent honesty.
While watching, I kept thinking that there are no limits to what is being done to people in secret. Do they use clean boards, clean towels, bottled water and relatively gentle hands?
I
thinkknow they don’t and I felt revulsion and fury at what continues to be done in my name.Spencer;
Respect to Hitchens for doing this, to educate those whose imagination is not adequate to their humanity.
I shall NOT watch as I’m already convinced, it’s “cruel and inhuman” well beyond any doubt.
Spencer, cboldt, who often comments, with a well developed cogency, on the threads of FDL, has suggested that use of the term, “cruel and inhuman” would gain better traction than “torture”, for a number of reasons.
While cboldt did not elaborate, overmuch, on those ‘reasons’, I think his concern is worthy of considerable respect. So much so, that I feel we would be remiss not engage in some dialogue about the use of the most-effective terms in our discussions and in what tack we might encourage for “other’s” consideration.
Have you some thoughts regarding the best course, regarding terminology?
Torture will continue so long as Bush and Cheney remain in power. The results are not important to them. The fact that they ordered torture makes them feel like masculine tough guys, something they can never be on their own.
I admired Daniel Levin when he submitted to waterboarding because he’d been charged with revising the OLC memos and felt he should sort through the debates himself. And I respect the SERE training (although I believe testimony before Senate Armed Services was that waterboarding was only tried in the naval SERE program, and then only for a time).
And Hitchens is at least honest enough to reject the euphemisms — waterboarding is torture, and there is nothing “simulated” about drowning unless you’re using simulated water (variant techniques are also just plain suffocation, not simulated suffocation). Also, no real doctor would ever claim that the effect on individual human bodies can be medically predicted or controlled with certainty, and the lawyers and politicians who’ve claimed that are either deluded or lying.
But Hitchens is already even further removed from the reality of a tortured prisoner than the much more useful Levin was. It bothers me to see journalists start to do this sort of thing. This isn’t quite torture tourism, but it’s getting there. It isn’t a bad piece of writing, but it bothers me that it was done at all.
Please don’t say anything in comments like “it’s good that warmonger was waterboarded.” Some days I feel that way as well. Most days, actually. But ask yourself: does venting such expressions affirm or undermine your humanity?
I’d like to see Bush Cheney Rove Rumsfeld Yoo Rice Addington Limbaugh given HumVees with hillbilly armor and Chinese ammunition, so they can drive one block into Sadr City while Commander Codpiece yells “Bring it on!”
Is that bad? I just want them to become honest wingnuts, instead of hypocritical chicken hawks that send others to die while they nosh on quail wings.
This is great. Now we have shown the entire world how to do this. I didn’t know it was so easy.
(Yes, I know their are videos showing this, but somehow this is more credible.)
Beheadings are up in Mexico drug wars. Now the waterboard will be the kids’ new bullying tactict. Thank you George W Bush. You have you legacy. The SMU Bush Library should henceforth be referred to as Waterboard U.
What does it mean to be human? Torture is sado-masochism carried to an expreme. It’s all about hierarchy. We see the people we torture as beneath us, not worthy of our concern. Equality offends us because we see humanity (human nature) as so low. We don’t want to be equal. We want to be superior and go to great lengths to prove the point.
Nationalism comes from the same psychological need. If we can’t be a boss here, we can an “American” which is why we trash anyone who suggests the US does bad things. They’re not bad if we do it.
Well, I’m certainly relieved to know that those who’ve been waterboarded under the auspices of the United States of America had only to waggle their pinkie to make the torture end. Who knew?
Dead on! DL.
Waterboard U.
But….but…but…since the “ememy combatants” we’re waterboarding aren’t strictly speaking human, how can what we’re doing be a crime?
Boxturtle (Why is the rest of the world looking at us like that??)
The guy (Bush, in case there is any doubt about who I mean) used to blow up frogs with firecrackers. You think he will hesitate having someone else do his torture for him? From a distance? Remotely? I bet he jacks off in private thinking about it. He is intellectually incurious and thinks he looks good every time he looks in the mirror, which is often.
The ‘psychology’ of
the ‘over-man’
reflects the empty-ness
at the center
of ‘no-soul’.
Frightened…little…squeaks…
First off Hitchins is a pompous ass, but I do admire him doing this. Now if he would just shut up and go away.
What difference does it make if he or anyone else tries waterboarding? It’s the reality that our government has condoned this act of torture and then tried to excuse or cover-up the fact that it was done.
I still believe that war crimes should and will be brought against this administration. Call me naive, but I still have some faith in humanity.
Bush is crazier than that. Some time ago a guy named Jeff Gannon, a homosexual prostitute, got White House press credentials when White House press credentials were hard to come by. (no pun intended) According to White House logs he came and went when there was no press business and the times in and out were omitted, a technical violation of the law. This was another questionable Bush activity no one cares about. Was Gannon servicing anyone? Could it have been our Commander in Chief? My guess is “yes”.
Well, I asked myself your question: does venting such expressions affirm or undermine your humanity? My answer was, it depends on the “circumstances”! Remembering that the man willingly allowed this to be done to him, unlike some of the innocent victims this procedure was performed on, then the depends part is as to whether it changed the hearts or minds of any of his right wing cohorts. Otherwise, IMO, this was just the usual Hitchens gratuitous self aggrandizement and show-offiness, and I would say, it’s amazing the lengths that man would go to for attention. I’m not sure what his opinion was before the procedure, or whether it changed his own perspective after the procedure. That’s what I most want to know. Unfortunately, I had time to watch the video, but not do all the links because I have plans this morning. Hopefully, I can research more later.
Really ? Google “SOAW” and tell us you’ve got a need to be inventing ficticious torture acadamies operating on US soil.
At the risk of being pedantic, I have to point out that Yoo is technically correct in this case. Per the Convention Against Toruture:
Note the purpose clause. When waterboarding is done say for purposes of training, it technically isn’t “torture.”
That said, it’s still a horrific experience by all reports. And, when we do it to detainees, the purpose clause fuly applies.
For the well off, finding meaning in life is inversely proportional to the ease and comfort their families provide.
Which is why Commander Codpiece blew up frogs as a child, mocked the condemned as Governor, and destroys everything he touches as preznit. When you can’t feel anything as a human, inflicting pain and suffering is the last resort. On oneself for the masochist, on others for the sadistic sociopath.
As someone pointed out, waterboarding is only part of the torture process, a process that is designed to convince you that your life is now out of your own control. It’s sole purpose is to get you to perform scripted acts for political purposes.
As the loss of one’s future is plainly reinforced through the act of incarceration and random schedules, the prisoner adapts and designs self-control into little areas of his remaining life. These points are then taken away, piece by piece, until one agrees, quite literally, to do anything. Waterboarding is only a tool for doing that, just like the rack.
But, it is the process itself that is a product of a sick society. The Air Force had waterboarding as part of their SERE training. I was a part of that. Those who were not sickened by what was done, were removed as instructors, the entire purpose of the exercise was to educate trainees that, “you will talk eventually”, that is okay and not to teach potential POWs how to “resist”. We were trying to counteract the meme that “if you talked you were a traitor” BS that was spewed by the press every day, back then.
I agree with the poster that “holding up one’s pinkie to stop the waterboarding” is hardly about torture, the loss of control over one’s life. Give the person to me for three days, then ask him to write about torture and waterboarding.
Waterboarding’s too good for him.
Many years ago my husband was in the hospital, slowly dying of stomach cancer. He loved life and wanted to continue living as long as possible, even with a lot of pain. His stomach was blocked and at one point he began aspirating, his lungs were filling with water and he began gasping to me that he was drowning. I called for the resident, who looked at him, and in spite of seeing that his fingers were turning blue, said to me “Is he given to panicking?” to which I answered in outrage, “no – this is the first time that he’s been dying.” Just then my husband lost consciousness and they revived him and put him on a ventilator. He found the experience so horrible that he chose to discontinue treatment and die (which happened a few hours later) rather than have that happen again. He WAS drowning – it wasn’t simulated even though he “survived” it. Believe me – I watched the equivalent of waterboarding, and it was torture.
I like it. Mexican police are now studying torture.
I don’t despise Hitchins. He’s one of those eccentrics we should learn to cherish instead of lock up, and at least he’s got some intellectual honesty about him. He’s willing to take another look at things and reassess periodically.
The banality of the scene – catchy music, someone’s garage – adds to the creepiness. He managed to catch all the fine points, too – nightmares afterwards, going crazy from it and last but not least what the hell do you do if you aren’t guilty, aren’t in the know? I weep for humanity, those unfortunate enough to get in America’s way.
Not that they’ll pay any more attention to him than they do to us…
my sincere sympathy.
I have seen that happen to patients, and it is truly terrifying.
(I truly hope the resident became an informed human eventually or else left medicine forever)
It’s not sado MASOCHISM it’s sadism. As bizarre as SM is those who engage in it find mutual pleasure and give consent.
Cruel treatment, torture is sadism, plain and simple… not consent.
Heh, heh.
Remember how self rightously Hitchens defended the neocons in the run up to the invasion of Iraq? If I were Hitchens (god forbid), I would slink away in humiliation.
The inhuman treatment of prisoners is meant to send a message to others not to step out of line.
When prisoners are disappeared you can only imagine what was done to these people.
Remember the American girl who in Columbia who was believed to be supporting the rebel movement. Her treatment is essentially torture. Anyone care up here?
I truly hope the resident became an informed human
I imagine he did. But did Bush and Cheney and Yoo and Mukasey?
Probably little more than a cup of water sloshed on that towel; certainly not a pint. 4, 6, 8 thicknesses to absorb the water. And so probably, yess, this incident did not approach actual drowning, although it did produce actual suffocation.
However, haven’t we seen pictures of buckets of water beside the waterboard and thin cloth instead of thick towels? There is where the actual drowning could set in: clear water could get into the airways.
However, Hitchins doesn’t sound as though the distinction between ‘drowning’ and ’suffocation’ matters much to him anymore.
Whatever you want to compare it to, it is clear that it is horribly effective at unhinging the human psyche. (Hitchins sounds as though he has his own case of PTSD ongoing.) It would only be performed by people who are comfortable with taking the risk of destroying a fellow human’s mind in very short order.
Would it help elicit information in a “24″ scenario?
Even if it would, why would it ever be used in a situation where there is no immediate, urgent threat with many lives at stake and where the prisoner is being held for month after month, year after year? Only if the interrogator were lazy, cruel, and inhuman.
It’s amazing that those who torture have children and thing they can love.
Where do they get all these disturbed people to do these heinous acts?
I posted these links elsewhere at FDL, but they’re most relevant to this thread:
From Solzhenitsyn’s “Gulag Archipelog”, The Simplest Methods That Break the Will.
U.S. private security firms training Mexican police in torturing drug suspects.
It didn’t sound that bad to me, though — forcing prisoners to roll in vomit (never been to college?), forcing carbonated water up their noses (never laughed while drinking a coke?). Sheesh.
Make that utter humiliation. Never has anyone switched teams at such a poorly chosen time. So wrong. So embarrassingly wrong.
Jus Cogens!
I remember the night on Bill Maher’s show when he gave the audience the “finger” when they responded to one of his remarks about the Bush admin.
This man has no class, he just thinks he does.
When Karl “turdblossom” Rove described the kind of person Obama was…Something on the order of a man who leans against a wall at the country club and berates others passing by…that’s the kind of person Hitchens actually is.
He carries no credibility in my world.
No, it was a staple of the program when my contemporaries and I went through it almost 30 years ago. I don’t need to watch a video to know what it looks like, I saw my friends being waterboarded until it was my “turn”.
None of my buddies, whom I stay in touch with after all these years are surprised that this is torture. We just can’t figure out how it became “Policy” outside the training environment.
The incredible and far more popular tactic than waterboarding, sexual violence – whether in the Congo or US soldiers raping their comrades or the young pregnant woman in St. Paul last week who was abducted and gangraped – rises to at least an equal level of cruel and inhuman as waterboarding.
Surpassing the bravado of those like Hitchens who seem to want to prove by this demonstration they really have the cajones, would they also like to sample being raped?
Women have always known violence against their being is a war crime. We just can’t get anyone to declare war.
Come on Pups Digg this Post the AttAckerman gives us Da goods on this one
I timed it, from the first slosh of water on the towel to the metal hitting the floor, seventeen seconds.
I wouldn’t be so sure he made a mistake. I suspect the team he’s on now pays better. Alcoholics have a way of getting into all sorts of trouble, not least of all money trouble, the kind powerful friends can get you out of.
Sorry that was the wrong link to Solzenitsyn’s The Simplest Methods that Break the Will.
I highly recommend everyone read this, then reflect that the right that’s now instituting a gulag all over the world made such utility of this great man.
Or, as Solzenitsyn puts it above, “Is it necessary to go on with the list? Is there much left to enumerate? What won’t idle, well-fed, unfeeling people invent?”
We just can’t figure out how it became “Policy” outside the training environment.
The Bush/Cheney crime organization knew they needed a steady stream of “confessed terror plots” to keep up the Big Lie about the threat of Islamic terrorism.
Christy has a new thread up back over at FDL…
“Powerful friends” like this?
http://firedoglake.com/2007/09/07/naughty/
Ya think Itchens and Chalabi will have a few laughs about this next time they share some gin?
Some years ago Stanley Milgram at Yale conducted an experiment where he took people off the street, told them they were conducting an experiment. They turned a knob which they believed controlled the amount of electricity going into an unseen subject. The subject screamed and pleaded for them to stop, but they didn’t stop because a white coated lab person told them to continue. There was a point on the knob when, they were told, the amount of electricity was fatal. A surprisingly large number of people, on being told to do so, turned the knob past the fatal marking.
As for where they get people, ask yourself if given the choice of being the torturer or the torturee, which you choose? There’s social pressure and a host of other things that go into it, but most of us choose dishonor over death. When the society goes crazy, it is extremely difficult to find the courage to not go along.
A crucial part that cannot be emphasized enough in the Air Force report you cite is that the Chinese Communist techniques were known to provide false information.
Known.
Waterboarding isn’t about getting information. It’s about sadistic torture.
The saddest commentary on our society is the need to say this.
!
I DO despise Hitchens. He hasn’t an ounce of intellectual responsibility. He’s a sullen, shallow, Troskyite trainwreck to then manner born. he cares for nothing save his own bloated ego and where he’s going to get the next drink.
I would stay clear Mr. Ackerman, of trying to lay the blame all on Mao. Our most favored allies, the Saudis and Israelis’s both allow violent forms of torture.
If you’ll remember only last year Israels’ own high court announced they allowed the use of “extreme interrogation of suspects deemed to be “time bombs”.
Whoever Bush and Israel choose to label a “terrrorist”.
Let me tell you Mr. Ackerman, how things really work: right now MSNBC and their ‘foreign correspondent’ Martin Fletcher are running stories about a new ‘terrorist’ attack in Israel. A Palestininan “terrorist” of course.
The story later reveals the ‘terrorist’ is an ‘Arab’ businessman, living and working in Israel, with no ‘militarist’ history, who just cracked -for some mysterious unknown reason.
This MSNBC/GE correspondent – who surely has instructions to spice up his story, begins profiling/mentioning other “Arabs”/”terrorists” – just Arabs living is Israel -who’ve also cracked.
In Israel, unlike the lands of Mao and Kim whose citizens when they light themselves on fire in protest of their governments brutality are heroes, should you be an Arab living in Israel and protest their governments brutality your a terrorist.
Under Israel’s laws, imagine what they are about to do to his family.
Well, I was referring to testimony from Dr Jerald Ogrisseg, who is currently the SERE Research Psychologist for the JPRA and who testified to Senate Armed Services on this topic on 17 June. Indeed, he does not look old enough to have been involved in the program thirty years ago; I presume he is referring to a recent version of the program that he is familiar with (and he does sound both current and expert). Sorry I don’t have a transcript to hand, but if you’re interested I’m sure you could find his testimony.
My sympathies also. I’ve seen patients endure this and it is horrible.
“… inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining …”
Does the phrase “for such purposes as” define the complete list of possibilities or only name some of them?
If I post to this blog for such purposes as to debate, define or discuss torture, does this mean I am NOT doing it for some other purpose?
Have to give Hitchens credit here. Interesting that today in the NYTimes we learn that the aggressive methods of interrogation were all taken from the Korean War era Communist Chinese, actually from a 1957 paper regarding the false confessions thereby extracted from American servicemen. Do those picked up in Iraq and Afghanistan have ‘dead man switches’ to call a halt? Or safe words? Doubtful. I wish that the White House and Pentagon bureaucrats who devised the list of permissible harsh techniques had undergone SERE training. I suspect that they actually aren’t evil themselves, but just thought, ‘how bad can it be?’ Well, with the Hitchens video, they now must know the answer: very.
I guess the horrible experience kinda drives out all the cool false confessions you may have envisioned as a snappy comeback, like ‘Luke, I am your father!’ I was profoundly shocked by what a short time it took for Hitchens to kind waterboarding unbearable. And I do not think this any discredit to him.
Since the stress positions, time-disorientation, living in your own waste, waterboarding, etc. that the US adopted from the Chinese Commies who were after false confessions, but the Bush/Cheney cabal thought they could get true confessions, who could object if we salted Bush/Cheney/Addington, et.al. away somewhere (how about a Navy ship patrolling the antarctic waters – and away from inferring US courts) after Jan.20, 2009, and more rigously tested whether these techniques lead to true or false confessions – and lets video-capture the sessions for the nightly news so we can see that “this isn’t torture”.
[cross-posted from