Over 225 are dead in what was a widely telegraphed Israeli bombardment of Gaza. "Still," the New York Times reports, "there was a shocking quality to Saturday’s attacks, which began in broad daylight as police cadets were graduating, women were shopping at the outdoor market, and children were emerging from school."
J Street strikes precisely the right tone. This is from executive director Jeremy Ben-Ami’s statement:
Even in the heat of battle, as friends and supporters of Israel, we need to remember that only diplomacy and negotiations can end the rockets and terror and bring Israel long-term security and peace.
Why? Gideon Levy explains in a scathing Haaretz piece. I’d urge you to read the whole thing. The "previous" war he’s talking about is the Lebanon debacle.
Israel also proves that it has not internalized the lessons of the previous war. Once again, this war was preceded by a frighteningly uniform public dialogue in which only one voice was heard – that which called for striking, destroying, starving and killing, that which incited and prodded for the commission of war crimes.
Once again the commentators sat in television studios yesterday and hailed the combat jets that bombed police stations, where officers responsible for maintaining order on the streets work. Once again, they urged against letting up and in favor of continuing the assault. Once again, the journalists described the pictures of the damaged house in Netivot as "a difficult scene." Once again, we had the nerve to complain about how the world was transmitting images from Gaza. And once again we need to wait a few more days until an alternative voice finally rises from the darkness, the voice of wisdom and morality.
In another week or two, those same pundits who called for blows and more blows will compete among themselves in leveling criticism at this war. And once again this will be gravely late.
But Levy won’t be heeded. The Jewish writers who consider Palestinian life to be worth a fraction of an Israeli life will start braying about antisemitism, because when Palestinian bodies are charred in the streets, the real victim is a sensitive Jew’s sense of collective guilt. (That doesn’t mean there isn’t actual antisemitism in this world. Do not test me in the comment section.) Fellow lit’ry tribesman: do you believe for a moment that leveling Gaza will stop the rockets? Well, then you’ve lost your right to call the peaceniks naive. You want the cycle broken? Then you can start by breaking your own.



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Let’s talk about proportion. According to recent figures (ever changing), the first attacks killed 240, of whom 180 were Hamas fighters. This means that 25% of the dead were collateral civilian casualties. The number was this high only because Hamas insists on putting its military installations next to (or in) civilian centers – hospitals, schools, mosques, etc.
Hamas rocket attacks and suicide bombings are aimed at civilian targets and result in nearly 100% civilian casualties. Any military or police dead are collateral to the aim of killing unarmed civilians.
A standard definition of a bully is:
(Emphasis added.)
So, if Hamas attacks civilians and Israel responds by attacking Hamas soldiers and police, who is the bully?
Having said this, it it possible to agree that the Israeli attack may be counterproductive and delay the possibility of peace. Yet, Israel was willing to continue discussions and the ceasefire on one condition: That Hamas reaffirm the recoginition of Israel’s right to exist, originally given by the previous Palestinian government. Hamas refused!
“J Street strikes precisely the right tone.”
“…..only diplomacy and negotiation…”
It’s quite possibly true. However, the resumption of rocket attacks into Israel might have indicated the time for sincere and fruitful peace negotiations was not yet at hand.
cober,
Every Israeli is in the military, by default. It is their way of enforcing their war footing propaganda and reminding their “citizens” that “they are at war”. There are no “innocent” Israelis in the eyes of every country except Israel and possibly the US.
I believe there have been some six injured Israelis from rocket attacks, over the last six years (until very recently where accurate numbers are as yet to be determined). On the other hand, well over several thousands of innocent Palestinians, Gaza Strip inhabitants and Lebanese have been killed by direct Israeli action, in the same period.
Regime change in Israel would be a first step to peace in the ME. Love Israel, hate our government.
The way you define and use “innocent” makes you sound simple.
And the Israelis with this single attack killed more people than all of the Gaza rocket attacks combined. Fuck proportionality. This is both a barbaric and suicidal action by the Israeli government. It will not “soften” Hamas or the Palestinians, it will only further radicalize the people and strengthen Hamas and other radical groups. If you want to destroy Hamas, give the Palestinian people legitimate reason to hope for a viable, independent Palestinian state through peaceful negotiation. That starts with destroying all of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, by the way.
.
Hamas is weak they hide behind civilians like a child running behind his mom. Of course that doesn’t stop Israel from beating up both the mom and the child!
Israel takes land the other side suffers more deaths the other side keeps fighting as best they can but each time they lose they get weaker.
Who will win will the Israeli’s commit Genocide before the Palestinians can convince the world to get involved
Or at least have America stop giving Israel money and guns?
you do know that Gaza is all of 25 mile long and 6 miles wide?
and the false hue and cry over recognizing israel’s “right to exist” is laughable… they had a truce… what does that tell you?
Book Salon up at the Mothership
“Israel also proves that it has not internalized the lessons of the previous war.” Other than “peaceniks”, no one internalizes the lessons of previous wars. It’s all tragic and barbaric.
Now maybe I have a different slant because I spent 12 years in uniform and a year in Vietnam, but I believe that it is the duty, the supreme reason for being, for a national govt to protect its citizens. With many rockets coming from Gaza every day, it does not matter if anyone has been killed, the potential and the intent of the govt of Gaza-Hamas-is to kill Israelis. The fact that the sole reason for Hamas existance is to destroy Israel should also be considered.
People die during a war. Innocent or guilty, people die. The fact that Hamas deliberately placed their children next to buildings that they knew would be targeted tells me that they place their ideals over all else.
The fact of the matter is that while Hamas exists and remains in charge of Gaza-which if I am not mistaken they achieved thru murder of the people who had been in charge-they will do anything to destroy Israel.
I have seen war up close and personal, when 1 side will not talk and whose main aim is to destroy the other sides country then the side who has been attacked for many months without a military response IMHO has every right to defend itself.
Many people in the US have little or no understanding of what war is and the reasons for war. In war people die and it does not matter how guilty or innocent one is. Child, adult, man or woman they will all die. Unfortunately the US has made a fetish out of attempting to keep noncombatants from being killed. Directed munitions-bombs-instead of area munitions are one example. WWII is not that long ago. We firebombed Toyko, hundreds of thousands died who were noncombatants. We started firestorms in German cities, hundreds of thousands died. The time when wars killed only those who directly participated passed hundreds of years ago.We might believe that we are civilized, but really all we are is seperated from the reality of war. The reality of death. As the saying went when I served in Vietnam, shit happens, then you die.
Hamas knew that what they were doing was going to provoke Israel into an armed response. While the leaders hid themselves in a safe place, they placed all those who lived near their govt buildings in danger. They cold bloodedly placed children in danger so that they would be killed and they could then shout to the world what cold blooded killers the Israelis are, look, they even target children. Thus giving the gullible and ignorant MSM their story, once more painting Israel as the bad guys. Making the victim into the attacker and turning the attacker into the victim.Not surprisingly, the corporate MSM also buys into this thus giving the gullible citizens of the EU and the US who are ignorant of war still another reason to hate Israel. The only democracy in the entire middle east. It still amazes me how easily we the people are manipulated by terrorists and the corporate MSM.
Anyone else think maybe Israel is over-reacting and getting it one last uncontrolled, Cheney approved, shot before Obama takes over?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
Israel, I just don’t get the gross over-reaction here and in the Lebanese debacle last year. I think they get 3-10 billion in aid, anyone else want their tax dollars back?
cobernicus, do you have a source for your claim that 180 Hamas fighters were killed? Who says so, and how do they count? Does any employee at Hamas headquarters, which was destroyed, count as a Hamas fighter even if his or her job was the distribution of food?
Or is the IDF just making these figures up, the way the US military does in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Ya. OK timr. Lets just let Israel nuke them. Who cares that they are fire pop guns and Israel is using F18’s we gave them. Who cares that Israel has been stealing their land and burning their fig trees. Who cares that Israel has ruined their economy. They fight back, we agree that intolerable imabalance in force is A-OK. It may be OK with you, it is not OK with me to intentionally kill kids, EVER.
Also, doesn’t it mean crap to you that the U.S. government is tacitly approving of this via Rice’s insane comments? Bush is setting us up for another terrorist attack. Can Bush and Cheney and Rice LEAVE already!
As I have written before and will do so as often as it comes up, Israel faces the colonizer/empire builder’s paradox. Any leadership it puts in control of territory it occupies will be seen as collaborationist and illegitimate by the native population. Any authentic homegrown leadership will have credibility principally in terms of its ability and willingness to stand up to the occupier. What has happened repeatedly during Israel’s occupation of the Territories is it has sought to destroy such native leadership each time it arises because it was insufficiently obedient to Israel’s demands and each time it has been replaced by a leadership more radical than its predecessor.
I would point out that Hamas is the legitimately elected government in Gaza. I would point out too that Israel has been much more terroristic in its wholesale slaughter of Palestinians than anything the Palestinians have ever come up with against the Israelis. I would finally point out that the current assault on Gaza has almost nothing to do with Gaza but almost everything to do with national elections in Israel in February. So can the kneejerk defenders of Israel please back off. Or do you feel that almost 300 dead Palestinians is a price worth paying for a little electioneering?
And yes, people have been killed.
Does it matter that Israel targeted prisons and just let all the prisoners in the West Bank go free? They were supposed to be holding some terrorists for us, oh well, who cares, Israel is always right, right?
The KenoshaKid-
Iguess that makes you happy to kill Palestinian children and incite hate for another generation or two? That is so counterproductive it is amazing. How many people does the lying corrupt Israeli government tell you have been killed? 20? Cut it in half for the real number.
NO MORE AID TO ISRAEL! If they want to kill kids, let them do it on their dime.
well i refuse too. i don’t think states have rights – people do.
And without dragging us into it with them.
from that notorious Israeli front group, Human Rights Watch
It seems like just moments ago that you said it was not okay to intentionally kill kids, ever. Do Jews not count?
What MSM are you talking about? I have yet to hear ANY criticism of Isreal’s actions in the American media.
Any examples?
A lot of these so-called “fighters” were policemen who were killed when their stations were hit. Gaza is mostly urban and its police stations are in urban areas. So the idea that they should have been somewhere else is as lame as it is stupid. And as has been pointed out repeatedly, who will provide the security the Israelis demand when they are so busy killing precisely these people?
And as for the ceasefire, let us remember that Israel has been blockading Gaza for more than a year to the point of leaving a large fraction of its population chronically malnourished. Yes, that’s a great way to win hearts and minds.
of course – human rights are universal. jews count and so, equally, do non jews.
TheKenoshaKid-
You miss the point, people count equally. What did this election prove to you? Possibly nothing.
Well okay then. I was just trying to correct some of the misinformation on this thread, as in post 3 which claimed that no Israeli had been killed by rocket attacks. I admire the evenhandedness of that HRW report, and prefer it to the sort of blatant Israel-bashing that goes on.
Yes and you had to go back more than 4 years for that one. We have only to go back to yesterday. I agree that Israeli lives are worth every bit as much as Palestinian ones. But the Israelis have killed many times many more Palestinians than Israelis have been killed. Where is your compassion and sympathy for all those Palestinian deaths? Where is your anger at Israel’s land and resource grabs? Its building settlements within the Territories? Its restrictions on travel and movement within them? Its 40 year plus failure to help Palestinians develop their economy, their institutions? Why is it that after all these decades there is no university in the West Bank to rival the University of Tel Aviv? Why has Israel blocked any attempt by Palestinians, Arabs, and international organizations to bring real development to the Territories?
Because they would have had to yield an iota of control, given a smidgen of autonomy, and this they were never willing to do.
KenoshaKid-
The second point is, Hamas has a few rockets and a reason to use them – Israel starving their people is an act of war. So, the Palestinians react and then Israel uses it as a reaction to go even farther.
Isarael is part of the problem, until they want to be part of the soultion, don’t give them aid!
Their government is also as corrupt as any African nation you can name.
Anger at the settlements, yes. The resource grabs are unforgivable. The restrictions on travel and movement are obnoxious but understandable given the amount of suicide bombings Israel has had to endure. And I think the Palestinian
leadershipkleptocracy has a great deal to do with the lack of educational institutions and development.You ra freaking little liar. I said many fewer Israeli’s had been killed and this was a gross over-reaction. Learn to read.
What about the Israeli thugocracy? Their only response to Palestinian problems is violence.
Great, a sane post from you. Then how does killing more people, stopping people from getting food, and releasing prisoners and killing cops help?
the hrw report you cite was from more than a year and a half ago. in no way do i intend to suggest the deaths are not also important – and that they do contradict the claim made @3. but i do just want to put the current crisis in some context that the casualties are overwhelmingly on the palestinian side, and i don’t even know how to include the unnecessary deaths due to the blockade of gaza.
the checkpoints are clearly not about security as it is quite easy to get around them if one is patient. they are about making life miserable for the palestinians who can not reliably get to jobs, markets, schools or medical facilities.
Israel never permitted strong institutions to emerge in the Territories because it feared these might become loci of opposition to its policies. The result is weak and corrupt ones. By taking land, Israel also showed Palestinians that their institutions could not protect them further undermining them.
A the occupying power, Israel had major responsibilities which it not only did not respect but used to further its own agendas.
what has been done to birzeit university is another of many tragedies.
I have no idea what to do about the Israel/Palestine problem. If I did I would be king of the universe. But the amount of misinformation and reflexive Israel-bashing disturbs me. More light and less heat on this subject would be helpful.
what do you think of a binational state along the lines of what ali abunimah has proposed?
More light and less heat – LOL! Israel is sure heating up the Palestinians right now, with tone of U.S. made ammo. A nice wedge, like the withdrawal of all aid to Israel might be just the force we need to drive change.
It is not Israel bashing any more than criticizing Bush’s fiasco in Iraq is America bashing. It is a critique of specific policies pursued by particular ultra-conservative political parties and actors in Israel. There is a large, strong, and vocal opposition to these policies in Israel itself. Ha’aretz routinely opposes the Israeli government policies in its pages.
Israel’s response was woefully disproportionate — Hamas’ stated and oft-repeated goal is the extermination of Israel; Israel’s goal was ”stop shooting at us.” To compare body counts is simply to overlook Hamas’ incompetence and punish Israel for its preparedness.
Hamas declared an end to their ”truce” (which still involved at least one rocket and/or mortar attack a day), declared war, and escalated their attacks. What the fuck was Israel SUPPOSED to do?
J.
negotiate in good faith?
That question has been answered a dozen times in this thread.
Now don’t forget doc. Any disagreement with ANY policy of the govt of Isreal is PROOF POSITIVE of anti-semetism…
Col. Pat Lang has a great take on this tragedy…
Saner heads need to prevail…!
Then almost half of Israelis must be antisemitic.
Israel is supposed to fucking grow up and be a member of the international community, that follows international law and respects its borders. What a thought! A country that was GIVEN a fucking right to exist under international law ought to respect it!!!!!!!!!!!
Obama needs to grow balls out in HA and call a spade a spade.
LOL! Are you for withdrawing all aid?
People, David Axelrod stated that Obama backs the Israeli attack because Hamas fired it’s piss poor rockets at some time into Israel, so of course they must defend themselves. Looks like same old useless US policy. How many innocents killed and injured doesn’t seem to enter Obamas equation. Well he is a centrist after all. Oh, and by the way Obama is committed to Middle East peace, so long as it’s on Israeli terms, it appears. That Israeli stupidity will escalate world wide terror doesn’t seem a factor is Obamas triangulation either.
I agree 100%… Btw, as a Hawaii resident, it’s HI not HA…!
link please? thanks.
Axelrod is a pud, and is a politico first and he is Jewish:
http://tzvee.blogspot.com/2008…..ewish.html
There is no problem with being Jewish, but hopefully Obama has other aids that understand and see the big picture. Axelrod does not, and it may not be his Jewishness blinding him but the Jewish lobby in DC.
Why did they put the holocaust museum in DC? Hmmm, was a holocaust camp there? Did I miss the German invasion? It couldn’t have been placed there for blatantly pro-Israeli political reasons, nah, never…
Axelrod said it on one of the morning shows this morning – he was on both Face the Nation and Meet the Press.
i listened to mtp and didn’t hear him say that (although i was also doing other things, so might have missed it)
“I have no idea what to do about the Israel/Palestine problem. If I did I would be king of the universe. But the amount of misinformation and reflexive Israel-bashing disturbs me. More light and less heat on this subject would be helpful.”
Perhaps a less blatant “Israel is right at anything they do” view might get things off the current status. You see, the misinformation in the United States has disproportionately been that anything Israel does should be supported by the US Government. Look at what occurred in Lebanon. And even the Israeli’s acknowledged later it was a massive error. What created Hamas? It was the consequence of Palestinian reaction to the massive bullying Israeli response to the second intifada.
The reality is that there is absolutely NO proportionality in what Israel does in responding to threats. They always believe that they will destroy the threat, but it always comes back to create a more angry generation who suffer more suffering and destitution.
As Bob Marley wrote “A hungry man is an angry man”. You make someone an orphan, or murder a mans children and he will seek vengeance. It takes an energy ten times larger in the other direction for the person to set that anger aside.
Howdy, Ma’am! Helena Cobban offered a great critique on our Western Media… “Haaretz editorial: Israel ‘expedited’ breakdown of ceasefire”
Selise-
He was pushed on Israel on Face the Nation.
“David Axelrod, senior adviser to Obama, chose his words carefully Sunday, saying the president-elect would honor the “important bond” between the United States and Israel.
“He wants to be a constructive force in helping to bring about the peace and security that both the Israelis and the Palestinians want and deserve,” Axelrod said on CBS’ “Face the Nation.” “Obviously, this situation has become even more complicated in the last couple of days and weeks. As Hamas began its shelling, Israel responded. But it’s something that he’s committed to.”
Pressed about how much support Obama will offer Israel, Axelrod said: “He’s going to work closely with the Israelis. They’re a great ally of ours, the most important ally in the region. … But he will do so in a way that will promote the cause of peace, and work closely with the Israelis and the Palestinians on that — toward that objective.”"
Why “all”…why not some? Or at least “call” Israel on the fact that scores of violations exist on the conditions that US military support have occurred. The fact is that no one thinks that any of Israel’s neighbors is going to invade Israel. Israeli policy is fomenting the only risks to its citizens.
http://www.google.com/hostedne…..pj6WV-MjBA
Sorry I couldn’t find the AFP link
great link, thanks! from the haaretz editorial link:
Exactly. They cannot bomb the Palestinians into submission short of total genocide.
Well said and amen!
thanks. rather have it straight so i can make my own judgments (not calling anyone’s judgments into question, just that i am responsible for my own)
NP, go watch FTN.
Have I been blocked on this thread too? Amazingly simple minded folks run this place. Learn to handle true facts.
One thing is certainly clear: Hamas are cowards. If they believe that Israel is the enemy, and that they have no alternative but to fight, then let them engage the enemy’s armed forces directly…instead of deliberately targeting the enemy’s civilians, while using their own as human shields.
There’s no question that there’s plenty of blame to go around here — not just Israel and Hamas, but the US and Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Hezbollah, and on and on and on. We could go on (we HAVE gone on) at great length trying to figure out who bears most of the responsibility — and it’s a question we’ll never settle, which is why I’m ignoring it and focusing solely on the tactical situation.
And that tactical situation is, as I noted above, that Hamas is quite obviously willing to sacrifice not only Israeli civilians, but Palestinian citizens — whether out of appallingly stupidity or cynically calculated manipulation, it’s still cowardice. I look forward to reading of more of their (Hamas) deaths — every one represents one less coward contaminating my planet, one more utterly disposable life ended — and good riddance to them. My hope is that as few civilians (on both sides) are lost in the process, but I’m sure Hamas will do everything possible to maximize the body count. (I trust folks saw the news item earlier in the day where the CNN wire reported that — following the breach of the wall with Egypt — Hamas had opened fire on Palestinians.)
Glad to see many on this thread see the racist, genocidal Israeli gov’t. actions (at least 225 killed in one day, total # of civilians unknown) for what they are.
As usual, we get the apologists for Imperialism & “the white man’s burden” (as Kipling so bluntly put it) to “civilize” those savage brown people who don’t honor brute force. I like the Vietnam vet(purported)’s claim that a gov’t. should first “protect” its people, but how he completely disregards that Hamas’s actions are in response to the complete starving/strangulation of their civilian population economically which began in spring ‘07. I also like the Kenosha Kid’s “people have died” statement w/ no #s or facts given.
In this country you won’t get a fair assessment or even a passing acknowledgment that the Palestinians are human and possess any rights from our corporate MSM, but the rest of the world sees things a bit more even-handedly.
I wish I had any confidence that an Obama admin. will change our 100% support of and funding/arming of Israeli massacres, but I’m certainly not that naive.
You’re sick.
Oops! That was supposed to be a reply to RiderOnTheStorm @67. Sorry, somatichypermutation — I agree with you. I was trying to object to RiderOnTheStorm calling people disposable.
The 180 Hamas police dead comes from Hamas TV. The 240 number came from numerous press reports.
As I said, these were the numbers from the first attacks and are changeing.
Every Israeli adult over the age of 18 is technically in the Army or Reserves. Children, tourists, etc. are not.
On the other hand, Hamas recruits women and children to serve as suicide bombers, so your “innocents”
If Israeli casualties have been low, it is not from lack of effort by Hamas. It is attributable to efficient civil defense efforts. As a tiny minority in a sea of Muslim enemies determined to “drive them into the sea,” Israelis put a high value on the lives of their citizens, something wihich Hamas apparently does not.
In case you haven’t noticed Israel unilaterally returned the Gaza Strip to Palestinian control, with wonderful results.
Israel is supposed to negotiate in good faith, huh?
Here’s a bit of reality that might have escaped you idiots:
1) Hamas is the duly elected government in the Gaza Strip.
2) Hamas’ charter states unequivocally:
”Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.”
”Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?”
”There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
All from Article 13 of the Hamas Charter.
Just listen to their own words. They ARE NOT INTERESTED IN NEGOTIATIONS. At least, not as anything but as a tactic towards their true goal — the eradication of Israel and its replacement with an Islamist state.
LEARN TO READ, MORONS. Listen to what they say. Not to take them at their word is racism.
J.
Somewhere Jeff Stein is asking “Why can’t we get the US to shoot down the Israeli planes”.
Per the latest count:
Again, ~20% civilian casualties. It should be clear to anyone that civilians are not being targeted by the Isaraelis. On the other hand: