Gershon Shafir has a really perceptive post up at the group-blog adjunct to Informed Comment asking what happens in Gaza as the Israeli bombing progresses past its third day. Consider:
First, Israel is about to exhaust obvious and legitimate military targets, especially those available for aerial bombardment, even under their broadest interpretation. Admittedly Hamas never seriously tried to separate its political and military wings–unlike, say, the Basque nationalist ETA (who have had both the clandestine ETA and various incarnations of the Hari Batasuna Party) or the Irish Republicans (who had the IRA and the Sinn Fein Party), partly because it does not really have a political strategy distinct from its military one. Even so, bombing Hamas police stations and Hamas’s organizational structure is different from striking the Hamas broadcasting center, let alone the Islamic University in Gaza City. Attacking distinctly civilian targets and the infrastructure of civil life is a potential war crime. It is also counterproductive. The number of civilian casualties will rise, and the international community will be mobilized to chip away at the immunity Israel now seems to possess in targeting Hamas.
For those inclined against listening to stuff like this unless it condemns Hamas, don’t worry, Shafir condemns Hamas:
Hamas’s alleged pragmatism has evaporated since its coup and we are left with the reality of an exclusively military world view. The consequences have been disastrous for Palestinians, not just for Israelis. But deploring this reality is less important than facing up to it.
Can we go back to acting like grown-ups now?
Crossposted to The Streak.



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Have there ever been any grown-ups where the I/P conflict is concerned?
Digg is open
what coup by hamas? I must a missed somethin?
Dropping bombs on a civilian population from aircraft is a war crime. It’s very simple and clearcut. There is no wiggle room, nor plausible justification.
mebe they are smart bombs?
Kinda curious ’bout that me-own-self, california.
Could I just say that this whole thing is deeply distressing, and that for the most part, I hold the country with military might and big bucks responsible? (Yeah, I know. Which one?! Okay. The U.S. backed Israeli government/military.) Military bullies versus impoverished and furious street toughs. Where have we seen this before? When will we ever stop seeing it? This whole thing is just plain wrong.
and so is launching rockets
right.
so what exactly IS the difference between a coup and a democratic election????
really?
So, Spencer, how do grown-ups act? Really. I want to know.
No. Neither Hamas nor Kadima/Likud are capable of acting like adults, or even rational human beings, in this matter. Both are consumed with a sense of grievance and divine entitlement, as well as an all consuming blood lust.
Shafir is wrong on several counts. The primary reason Israel began bombing Gaza was that the ruling Kadima party wanted to look tough before the Israeli elections in February. This was not a strategy but a campaign stunt, a singularly murderous one.
Second, Hamas did not stage a coup d’état in June 2007. It was the duly elected representative government. It was Fatah that tried to overthrow Hamas and it failed.
Third, Hamas was not the one to break the truce. Israel kept up an economic blockade throughout the truce period and in November it staged a raid inside Gaza. These Israeli actions were not consistent with a truce.
I am not a fan of Hamas but it does not help our understanding of the situation for Shafir to so misrepresent it.
i think a coup is when it doesn’t go your way. but i’m guessin.
but, but the us gov’t says hamas is to blame. discussion over.
californiareality:
A coup is like when Bush first becomes presnut
no Israel is to blame, discussion over.
doesn’t really matter does it?
no
Correct you is, Raven.
Do you consider that the ‘effectiveness’, comparatively, between the two ‘methodologies’ of war-making warrants discussion
‘Blame’ for continuing this madness is equally to be shared.
Yet ‘consequence’ seems rather … um, disproportionate, at least to me.
Have you any thoughts regarding that seeming ‘imbalance’?
Where are the calls for peace? Why must blame be assigned before peace can break out?
There needs to be global leadership on this. And the war crimes must stop.
sounds about right.
i hate this going on,
or as Gideon Levy in Haaretz put it earlier,
The neighborhood bully strikes again.
It’s easy from here. I have a Life Magazine from 1968 when they interviewed troops in Vietnam about the election and other issues. Most said, right or wrong, don’t stop the bombing while I am here.
Gaza Strip 2008 = Warsaw Ghetto 1942
Yep. According to the international observers, that was a fair and open election that Hamas legitimately won hands down.
Actually I am not so sure there is any difference here OR there. Everyone digs around and posts stuff that supports their view. . .and it doesn’t mean shit.
Ahhh, truth.
it’s all about the troops that are there?
Exactly.
does shit mean shit?
No, I’m just saying that things can look very different when you are being shot at, doesn’t matter by whom.
“And who was wrong
and who was right
it didn’t matter in the thick of the fight”
b joel
Well, if this were true, there would be no point to having a progressive movement since our “stuff” would have no more validity than any wingnut’s.
that is why i never ask those in battle. they are tryin to live.
Again, Raven, you are correct; “It is easy from here”.
Does the fact that America is arming and supporting one side, compell us, as American citizens, to the more difficult task of assessing our own culpability, before we may consider judging anyone else or their behaviors?
I think that it does.
Is this a factor in your reasoning?
You askin me? I see little chance people will change.
Holy shit – Pat Buchanon on MSRNC calls Israels stance totally disproportionate and saying that Obama needs to take a firm stance w/ Israel
Depends on what is is
change happens when forces are overwhelming. only then. we are on a curve where we as a country cannot afford to wage war against everyone. it’s a matter of money.
He was on that early this morning while Joe went nuts about “what if Mexico launched rockets into Texas?”
i still say he didn’t lie under oath. they don’t call him slick willie fer nothin.
Hadn’t seen it but Joe doesn’t just go nuts – he is nuts
As a native Okie and victim of the Mayberry Machiavellis, I would cheer.
Buchanan is an American fascist. He doesn’t like Israel because of its influence on American policy and that it gets in the way of our need for oil. But his own policy views are pretty repellent.
You’re killin me doc!
There is a county in AZ (Arapia sp) that would make a much more appropriate target.
Maricopa
Not to an Okie.
Thanks – I had a brain fart
Just for you doc
The Red River Rivlary
That’s redneck-wingnut Sheriff Arapaio of Maricopa county, AZ
Thanks for that. Having married a native Okie and raised two native born Okies (and being an OU alum) I appreciate that.
Sounds like we could have the makins for a C & W record.
Yeah. I am an OU grad (MA & PhD). That rivalry is pretty strong, but the cultural rivalry is much worse (too much alike – part of a unique cultural province of Texoma). Haven’t lived there in better than 20 years, but it is hard to shake 35 years of conditioning.
Michael Whitney up at the Mothership on WalMart and the Employee Free Choice Act
Seems we have something in common. What part of the state?
Norman. I did ba, ma
My late wife was from Lenepah (just north of Nowata) kids still own the farm there and my daughter is an RN in the hospital she was born in.
I am originally from Bartlesville (and actually know where Lenepah is)and my son lives there now. Also lived in Tahlequah and Norman. Left almost 21 years ago. Lived 11 years in Chicago and 10 here in western Montana.
Where is Lahoma???
I’ve been in Athens for 23 years but I’ll always be an Illini.
Had to look that one up, but it is in north central Oklahoma, an area I have generally avoided. Mostly because it is in the Great and I hate flat grasslands, but also the area was Republican even when the rest of the state was Democratic (And Oklahoma Republicans were even less sane then than they are now).
That should read “it is in the Great Plains”
Yep. I keep telling folks that you can take the boy out of Oklahoma, but you can’t ….
Of course I do generally try to keep my inner Okie locked in a basement closet most of the time as it tends to scare more civilized folks. Do still wear cowboy boots.
Sorry, Lahoma was a long time FDL poster that finally gave up and went away. Many of us really liked him.
Her. She was Kiddo’s wife, Raven,
actually that’s what I meant, if I had been clear. . . .
I know, Raven. I miss Oklahoma Kiddo and Lahoma and their gentle perpectives very much, and, clearly (as if there were any doubt),
you do as well.
DW
Yes and that is why humans should not be putting other humans into situations where they will be shot at. War is self perpetuating unless brave, selfless and intelligent people prevent war from starting. Tit for Tats never end. Dropping bombs from planes down on civilians crushed into confined territories…isn’t that brave? That’s like hunting moose from heliocopters.
Children die. Mothers die. The eldery and infirmed die. Yes, some soldiers die and some soldiers live to fight again, rationalize and teach the killing or go crazy. The view from planes is not close detail and it doesn’t foster empathy only a sense of power.
californiarealitycheck — ”what coup by hamas? I must a missed somethin?”
DWBartoo — ”Kinda curious ’bout that me-own-self, california.”
Hugh — ”Second, Hamas did not stage a coup d’état in June 2007. It was the duly elected representative government. It was Fatah that tried to overthrow Hamas and it failed.”
What you would be missing is the P constitution, which grants certain security authority to the President, which was overthrown by Hamas in June 2007 in violation of that.
Now that you know this, if you still believe this doesn’t qualify as a coup, you can explain your disagreement in terms of what military overthrow of constitutional powers you will find acceptable in the US under the Obama administration. Him being a president of a land with a constitution too.