I find it quite easy to think that a ground war is nuts, but I don’t have any idea of what the Israeli plan.
It might be that they’ve identified some things that they need to capture or destroy that they cant get from the air.

I would add that you should be wary of talking about ” these types of asymmetric wars” as this situation is rather unlike most.

This looks like mission creep to me. Creeping right into the sea.

The Israeli plan is to get the neocons reelected in the forthcoming election. Anyone know when that is?

WRT the picture attached to the post:
Can I refuse that maneuver? I’d prefer being able to trust the guy on my 6.

No, just air bombing and invading the homes and streets of starving civilians barricaded onto a reservation. I’m not sure I’d call it blunder…or did you say plunder? Is Bush a blunderer? Has he plundered America?

February 10.

No doubt that the Israeli military is plundering Israel.

I would add that you should be wary of talking about ”these types of asymmetric wars” as this situation is rather unlike most.

Isn’t that the very definition of asymmetric wars? Being unlike most and not following a set or standard pattern?

just the opposite - this is kadima’s war in an attempt to prevent a big likud win in the coming feb 10 elections.

Though through a small telescope on the immediate situation, I agree with Spencer, this is not yet genocide.

I do think it is absolutely continuous creeping cleansing /genocide.. whatever one prefers to call it.

If the 40 year “mission” isn’t apparent by now… I really don’t know what else to say.

Well, then the battles will be kept going until Feb 10. Seems too long to work to me (an outsider who knows nothing about Hamas’s ability to make mischief). From memory, in 2006, by the time 4-6 weeks had passed, it was obvious that Israel was losing. Perhaps they figure that the Gazans are not so well armed as the Hezzies.

Also, speaking of 06, wasn’t there supposed to be a purge of the incompetents in the army? Did it happen? I never kept track of it.

But if the neocons in Israel are anything like the neocons in the U.S., if the purge occurred, the incomers were less competent than the outgoers, because in radical movements, adherence to the cause is much more important to advancement than competence at the job.

I thought Livni was more neocon than most Israeli neocons.

I’m curious to know at what point it crosses over from “not yet genocide.” And I’m not being snotty. Who makes the call? Is it a numbers game? A percent of the population decimated? An expressed intent to wipe out an ethnic group? This whole genocide thing is a slippery concept, it seems.

Shorter Neocons: “We are all neocons now.”

Spit!

And btw, I suspect the Palestinians (read: leaders thereof) would just as soon see the Israelis obliterated as well. So we have cross-genocidal tendencies/proclivities?

I think that this creeping genocide is going to have a destabilizing effect in Egypt.
403 hrs & 59 min

Its ironic that the Nazis had to sneak the Jews off to the gas chambers and hide the carnage from the world. The world would have not tolerated bombing of the Warsaw getto. Now we see a ongoing apartheid and genocidal slaughter in plain sight and the world hardly flinches. I am disgusted.

And in the final analysis, does it really matter what we name it? Dead is dead.

Christian Ammapour reports that some Israeli official (forgot who she said) told her that the objective was to “teach Hamas a lesson” that the should not fire their rockets into Israel.

As much as I know about neocons, I am constantly jaw-droppingly amazed at the words that come out of their mouths.

I find it laughable thast Hamas is going to ‘rub Israel’s nose in the sand’. Are those camel-jocky’s turbans wrapped too tight? The Hebes can snuff Hamas out in less time than it takes to blink sn eye. And, as we learned in 1967, you don’t f*@%k around with the Israelis. Their troops are better trained, better armed and better disciplined. If Iran continues to stick its nose into the matter all Israel has to do is take the wrappers off of the nukes.

Pertinent suggested reads found at www.zmag.org at the Znet site under the 01/03/2009 entries–

Karkar–Israel’s Dogs of War written/submitted by Sonja Karkar–01/03/2009

Ali–Ashes of Gaza written/submitted by Tariq Ali–01/03/2009

Both entries offering wider and deeper POV’s regarding Israeli actions in and upon Gaza/West Bank.

Visiting zmag.org on a daily or weekly basis is time well spent for those seeking a wider stage of West Asian affairs commentary and information.

barbara, go to your room until you can deal with your anger constructively.

yes, ma’am.

and don’t slam the door.

okay….stomp, stomp stomp…[[[SLAM]]]

Oh, never fear. Tony Blair has just landed in Israel. A solution will quickly follow. /s

I guess you must have slept thru 2006.

Heh, at least you have a computer in your room.

Marty Peretz, is that you?

-G

I’m not sure it’s useful to apply the term “neocon” to Israelis. There really isn’t any recognizable Israeli figure who would be a recognizable “neocon” in the American sense. I suppose the closest is Natan Sharansky, who’s a rather marginal Israeli figure, while the actual American neocons are considered odd birds by most Israeli politicians, if occasionally useful ones. Why not view Israeli politics on its own terms, rather than on ours?

Israel is the aggressor here and needs to be told by the US to leave now and end all military actions in Gaza. How any sane person can look at these over the top actions by Israel and call them self-defense is beyond me.

Congratulations on your last ever FDL comment! Fuck you, sincerely, This ‘Hebe’

Dugg right here

Dresden.

livni came from likud before kadima, but her rhetoric - at least what i’ve heard of it - has not been as nearly crazy as bibi netanyahu who i consider a charter member of the israeli neocons. as you probably recall, the report (a clean break) that was written for him by perle and some other of the usual suspects. (more here from wikipedia).

but i may be wrong about her. and even if i’m not, neocons are not the only kind of warmonger.

But let us applaud Condi, Dick and Bush for their great long term vision.

I mean, since they adopted their policies after 9/11 the worlds trouble spots have been covered with calm and tranquility.

The worlds rogue states have been chastened and the US has the respect of the whole world.

-G

Who said you can’t judge a book by its cover?

I don’t know squat about Israeli politics. Just using terms in ways I thought I had seen others, more informed than I, use them.

The context in which I use the term neocon is the thought that Israel/U.S. can solve all international problems thru use of force and dominate it’s enemies militarily. Like the sentiments expressed in 20.

Don’t feel obliged to educate me, but I would welcome it if you feel like it.

been a subscriber for years. second your recommendation. don’t agree with everything, but they are a reliably left critque when other sources descend into mindless pro-dem talking points nonsense at some frequency (usually related to the election cycle)

not bibi?

That misses the mission-civilastrice-masquerading-as-democracy-promotion element that distinguishes neoconservativism from crude militarism. Far better than I can go into it, see Jacob Heilbrunn’s excellent intellectual history They Knew They Were Right.

perfect response. many thanks from this commenter.

See my 35. I was using neocon as a generic. At least I nailed Livni accurately. As far as her not being as nuts as Netayahu, there are also gradations of nuts within U.S. neocons.

E,

Here’s the Wiki.

-G

I read Heilbrunn. Are you saying that Israelis are not neocons, but rather just crude militarists with no patina? Are you saying that, unlike the U.S. neocons, the Israeli militarists don’t pretend that they are the more highly civilized society that therefore has a direct responsibility (a religious one) to spread the message by dominating their less worthy enemies?

Linky no worky. Seems like you just put http with nothing following it.

i don’t know any top level kadima or likud politican that doesn’t apply to. maybe spencer does.

Dresden certainly does serve as a model for the type of attack Israel is mounting but the motivation for the bombing, as horrible as it was was not intended for ethnic cleansing or genocide as it is in this case. At the time of Dresden most of the Jews had been moved elsewhere.

Glad I revealed my ignorance, as it led to learning. Gonna go make some lemon shortbread. Be back soon.

Isreal used palestinians as a labor source. They labeled them like the lave traders of the American South as possesions or chattel. While slavery was never established in Isreal the Palestinians were subjugated by wars into defacto slavery…then forced into ghettos and deprived of life sustaining resources. That seems to be the present situation. The lands that Isreal occupies was Palestinian.
What part of this do I not understand.
Is their any reason why Isrealis can’t have anyones home? Do they have the right by might. Are they not using Americans to have their way? I need some help with this.

“Neocon” is Republican-speak for “Zionist”

Neither word should be considered a “religion.”

Zionism and Judaism are decidedly NOT one and the same. Many Jews are anti-Zionists, with more leaning in that direction daily.

Neocon is effectively code for American Zionist.

Considering that Mossad prides itself on operating in secrecy and by way of deception, it must have come as a massive shock to see the news accounts of their undercover agents celebrating and filming the attacks on 9/11. The Intersection of Big Oil, The Religious Right, The Military Industrial Complex and Zionism all caught on one precious video tape. The evidence of this crime was captured by the perpetrators themselves. Their actions, the subsequent behavior of the Zionists within our own government to cover it all up, and the subsequent “spiking” of all news accounts related to this event all serve as Evidence of their role in the greatest crime ever committed.

http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/.....mn100.html

Zionist Chertoff was not only tasked with quietly deporting these Mossad agents, he was additionally tasked with covering up the money trail. These facts are known to all who purportedly “serve” our interests in the halls of our government, yet when Mr. Chertoff was put forward as the nominee to head up our Department of Homeland Security, he was approved UNANIMOUSLY. Any vote against him or any question as to his loyalty would have resulted in the wrath of AIPAC – a career-ending position to be in.

Control of the United States Government has been lost. Our destiny is presently in the hands of a foreign power (Israel) and an ideology (Zionism) as a direct result of a proven tactic (False Flag Terrorism) as proscribed by the “Roadmap for War” (PNAC).

http://www.informationclearing.....le7545.htm

Thank you for that Spencer. And dear mod, please can we have a clean up on 20. I find the c-j term offensive in the extreme.

Don’t feel alone, I learned something too.
403 hrs & 27 min

Second the request for cleanup in Aisle 20. I found that whole thing to be offensive.

probably the one thing that unites us here as much as anything.

but wait wait!

don’t go until you share the recipe!

UN Security Council to meet at 7:00 EST

the first link posted “bigmagic” has changed and is for some reason re-directing. ignore the first link.

oops 403 hrs & 22 min

July 7, 1996: A Clean Break Outlines New Middle East Strategy for Israel

Richard Perle.
The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies, an Israeli think tank, publishes a paper entitled “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm.” [Chicago Sun-Times, 3/6/03] Lead author Richard Perle will later become chairman of President Bush’s influential Defense Policy Board. Several other co-authors will hold key positions in Washington after Bush’s election.

In the paper, Perle and his co-authors advise the new, right wing Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahu to make a complete break with the past by adopting a strategy “based on an entirely new intellectual foundation, one that restores strategic initiative and provides the nation the room to engage every possible energy on rebuilding Zionism. …” The first step is to be the removal of Saddam Hussein in Iraq. A war with Iraq will destabilize the entire Middle East, allowing governments in Syria, Iran, Lebanon, and other countries to be replaced. “Israel will not only contain its foes; it will transcend them,” the paper concludes [Guardian, 9/3/02] , citing the original paper at [The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies, 7/8/96] .

Perle will be instrumental in moving Bush’s US policy toward war with Iraq after the 9/11 attacks.

One of the authors was Myrav Wurmser, wife of Cheney henchman, David Wurmser.

A little context can lead to understanding:

FAULTY MEMRI
HUDSON INSTITUTE…

Meyrav Wurmser, an opponent of the Oslo peace accords and a central neoconservative figure.

In 1996 she helped write “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm” and advised then-Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “to work closely with Turkey and Jordan to contain, destabilize, and roll-back” regional threats, help overthrow Saddam Hussein, and strike “Syrian military targets in Lebanon” and possibly in Syria proper. Coauthors of the report included Richard Perle, David Wurmser, and Douglas Feith.

She also cofounded with Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in the Israeli military intelligence, the Middle East Media and Research Institute (MEMRI).

According to her Hudson Institute bio, Wurmser “helped to educate policymakers about the Palestinian Authority two-track approach to ‘negotiating peace’ with Israel: calling for peace in the English press and with western policymakers while inciting hatred and violence through official Arab language media.”

Although it describes itself as “non-partisan,” MEMRI–which has offices in London, Washington, Jerusalem, and Berlin–has frequently been accused of being nothing more than a propaganda outfit of Israeli intelligence.

According the Guardian, which dug up deleted pages from MEMRI’s web site through the internet archive, “Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of Memri’s website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three–including [Yigal] Carmon–are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence. Among the other three, one served in the Israeli army’s Northern Command Ordnance Corps.”

The Guardian’s Brian Whitaker also reported: “Although Memri claims that it does provide translations from Hebrew media, I can’t recall receiving any. Evidence from Memri’s website also casts doubt on its non-partisan status.

Besides supporting liberal democracy, civil society, and the free market, the institute also emphasises ‘the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel’. That is what its website used to say, but the words about Zionism have now been deleted. The original page, however, can still be found in internet archives.”

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1394

The crisis in the Middle east. No matter what the reasoning there is NO justification for killing So many Palestinian Lives. The numbers of Palestinian CIVILIANS who are innocent victims in Israel’s assault against the Hamas is sinful. One life on either side to die is too much; yet how do you begin to justify almost400+ Palestinians(women, Children, fathers, brothers) to Israels count of 1 Israeli, or two or four. How can we sit back and allow Israel to Kill so many innocent people over and over again in the name of their cause to eliminate Hamas. As Americans, look into your hearts, there is no justification for what is happening to the Palestinian Civilians; who hears their cry, who cares about their babies, their young children, their mothers and fathers. Are we so involved with materialism, the television, the propaganda we are fed; that we forget to value all life. Being too busy is no excuse, ignorance is no excuse. These are children of God too; eventually we will have to answer why we allowed this killing to go on. Didn’t we learn from the Hollocast? As Humans created by
God; we are suppose to be above wild animals, chosen in the image of God; Is the image we want for ourselves. This fighting seems to have come after the election and before Obama is in office so no one
can interfere with the Israeli plan. As Americans if this ever happens to us; let’ hope the powers of the world that could help us; don’t turn their back on us; like we have done to the Palestinians. Lynn/New Jersey/USA

The Zionist Conspiracy just caused the Arizona Cardinals to score a touchdown.

/s

Damn, you are quick!

No, I’m certainly not saying that Israelis are crude militarists. Israeli political discourse is breathtakingly open from an American perspective, with fewer sacred cows. The Israeli left may not be very influential at the moment, but it’s really left. B’Tselem is one of the world’s premier human rights groups, without which we’d know comparatively little about the human costs of the 40-year occupation of the West Bank. What I mean is that Israeli and American politics, including right wing politics, are rather different, especially in terms of what resonates.

Consider that for a domestic audience, Bush and the neocons portray the occupation of Iraq as in the Iraqis’ best interest. The U.S. is bringing Iraq democracy and pluralism. Not for nothing did neocon-in-good-standing title his book “The Foreigners’ Gift.” I’m not making an argument for the sincerity of this contention. But it’s barometrically significant that the neoconservatives use this discourse to justify the occupation of Iraq.

By contrast, the Israelis, and particular the Israeli right, do not discuss the occupation of the West Bank, and Gaza before it, in terms of giving anything to the Palestinians. For years it was about a sick dream of ‘greater Israel’ but that’s become an outmoded and marginal position except for an ultra-rabid and terroristic portion of West Bank settlers. What commands a greater audience are arguments that occupation — and, now, the invasion and bombardment and blockade of Gaza — are first-order Israeli security interests. It’s not about the Palestinians-qua-Palestinians, in other words, and that’s a useful metric for distinguishing neocon from non-neocon-rightist.

It’s worth reflecting that in 1956, then US President Eisenhower stopped the Franco-British attempt to invade Egypt in a heartbeat by refusing to cooperate with it. He threatened to oppose it by not cooperating with it and by fighting it politically and economically, not by sending in the Navy and Marines.

The Suez fiasco, as it became known, was a British-inspired attempt to retake the Suez Canal after Egypt’s President Nasser had nationalized one of his country’s most important assets. UK prime minister Anthony Eden’s “inspired” plan was to hide his and his French ally’s aims behind an armed response by Israel to purported incursions by Egypt. Then as now, the Middle East was a powder keg; it would take little to set it off in a year that also saw the brutal suppression of the Hungarian Revolution.

The manufactured scenario fooled no one then, which implies that the US is at least fully cooperating with Israel, if not leading its attack by supplying planning and arms and by running diplomatic interference with the rest of the world community.

It’s also worth refelcting that the “enemy” here, apart from ignorance and extremism, is a small, permanent refugee population on the coastal border between Israel and Egypt. The Israeli response is wholly out of proportion with the threat, which puts their response outside the bounds of those permitted by international law. But like corporations rabidly trying to settle outstanding legal claims with the US Gubmint, Israel and its most extreme “supporters” know they’ll not have another George Bush in their lifetimes. For the rest of the world, that’s a feature, not a bug.

If this is George Bush and his AIPAC-inspired State Department’s last hurrah, no one’s laughing; they just continue to cry and count the days until January 20th.

Here comes the “Hasbara/Megaphone” onslaught. Don’t forget to shoot the messenger.

Yes, that was a lapse in taste in that post. Good thing you discerned it.

Calling BS on your 9/11 Truther nonsense makes me a Mossad agent? Fine. Hope you enjoy your veggie burrito tonight.. MWAHAHA!!!

Where is Dov Zakheim?

Where is Kobi Alexander?

If this is George Bush and his AIPAC-inspired State Department’s last hurrah, no one’s laughing; they just continue to cry and count the days until January 20th.

403 hrs & 4 min *G*

Collective punishment is a war crime.

I’m not making an argument for the sincerity of this contention. But it’s barometrically significant that the neoconservatives use this discourse to justify the occupation of Iraq.

i have looked on that as a difference in audience, and not in the position/ideology of the politicians (neocons in this case). iow, an american neocon would sell their policies with a different style of rhetoric in israel. but that would not be a sign the politician had changed - only the audience.

but maybe i’m using the term neocon in a non standard way?

Where’s Waldo?

Book Salon up at the Mothership The Green Collar Economy

That’s exactly what I was thinking! You are fast! Going back to my room.

You mean you are not going to offer me any wine grape juice?
402 hrs & 55 min

Can anyone name a single US national interest that our support of Israel fosters? Because I’m coming up empty here.

Not unless you consider the military industrial complex a national interest
402 hrs & 48 min

Thanks. Very useful.

Two of the many things I don’t understand about claiming that the bombing & invasion of Lebanon & Gaza are about Israeli security are (1) almost no Israelis are ever hurt by the rockets and (2) the disproportionality of the response.

i’ve yet to get any Very Serious Foreign policy type to tell me what “national interest” means. i’m pretty sure it’s code for something i’m not supposed to know about. sort of like when i was a v young child and my parents would spell out a word they didn’t want to say out loud in my hearing.

I am an American Zionist, and I am Jewish. I believe Israel has the right to exist and the right to be free from daily rocket attacks. I think that most Israelis want to live in peace.

What does Hamas want? Why did the Gazans elect Hamas and do they regret the choice? What about the connection of Hamas to the Islamic Brotherhood and their goals?

Let’s please separate Israelis and the current Israeli government. Let’s please separate the innocence of most people on both sides of the border from the intentions of their leaders.

American/Israeli neocons are amazing in their ability to never ever learn anything whatsoever from their 100% record of consistent blunders and disasters. This is the same faith based idiocy that ate them up in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon(they got their clock cleaned in that one) and now quite likely Gaza and Iran if they get to play out their collective wet dream. Anybody that needs “plans” is a unbeliever and is rejected. They are psychotic. Doesn’t say much for the IQ of the average Israeli if they elect any of these complete fools.

“According to Ha’aretz, a significant portion of Israeli “top commanders” dissented from the decision to invade,

….my god I go take a nap and what on God’s green earth do I wake up to? However I can’t seem to get a good article that actually tells me what is going on aside from ‘Israel launched a ground offensive.’ Is this because there is nothing else known or is there more information out there? If so can someone link me?

Sent you an email re lemon shortbread.

After 8 years of trying to come up to speed on U.S. foreign policy and U.S. foreign policy experts, I’m pretty sure that in order to be classified as “very serious” you must be able to use the military, whatever the situation is. The difference between very serious “left” is that they want to bomb for humanitarian reasons, whereas the very serious right doesn’t.

The U.S. interest in supporting Israel is so that U.S. pols can get elected, and Israel is also a surrogate for U.S. domination in the ME. The very serious experts think world domination (in the sense of having as few countries as possible do things we don’t like) is in the U.S. interests.

‘hasbara’..yes, plunger..the megaphone is starting to show up quite regularly. Considering that this chain of media lies was being designed at least 8 months ago in order to sway opinion about the current invasion,it is difficult to believe that the truth continues to be attacked in the face of overwhelming evidence that this was planned to raise the fortunes of a certain political party in Israel. Rockets vs fighter planes, helicopters, bombs, tanks, etc.,all unleashed after starving the Palestinians for two years. And we have no idea who keeps releasing the rockets every time the word ‘peace’ is mentioned.

“Attacking the messenger” from the Hasbara handbook is increasing at FDL. TheKenoshaKid would have known exactly what you were saying when you used that phrase.

that was beautiful.

Just saying.

A fact that the US politicians and MSM continue to ignore 24/7.

I’ve encountered him on various sites over the years. I’ve seen and heard every one of their tactics. Absolutely a megaphone plant.

Consider that a rocket landed in your neighborhood every couple of days. Mostly, no one gets hurt. A garage, an empty kitchen. No biggie, right?

Laws are for thee but not for me - what do you expect.
402 hrs & 20 min

National interest can mean many things. Does something enhance our standing in the world? Does it make us more secure? Is it something that we have a critical need for? Is it important to our economy? Does it stabilize a region, for example, one from which so much of the world’s energy originates? Will it decrease the chances that we will need to become militarily involved? Does it improve the quality of life of Americans? Does it improve the quality of life of others? Does it make the world more peaceful?

These are the kinds of questions that should help us define what a national interest is.

And certainly nothing wrong with living your life so you’re never more than 15 seconds away from a bomb shelter. No effect at all.

Read the explanation of hasbara. The Orwellian double speak and outright lies are utilized to sway public opinion. The lies are decided on and fed to the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbara

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Hasbara

My 2 points were coupled. But if a rocket did land in my backyard every couple of days, I might a) consider moving, b) ask myself why it was happening and try to do something about the cause, like not stick millions of people in prison without food & water. What I probably wouldn’t do is c) take my $500 billion military (Israel’s is probably larger than the U.S. as a % of the economy) and bomb the living daylights out of helpless starving civilians and then send in tanks to roll over them.

don’t disagree with your assessment. i’ve been saying for a couple of years that the dems use “humanitarian” justifications for war and the Rs are more likely to use fear but both are lies to get support from their constituencies (and that samatha powers is one of the most dangerous warmongers on the D side).

i just find it interesting that when i’ve asked people like wes clark and steve clemmons what they mean by “national interest”, there is no response.

but then, i’m pretty sure their answer would not be the same as yours or hugh’s.

Thanks for the links. Sounds familiar.

Rut ro, a dissenting voice on the Lake!

Yes..most definitely from the dark side, he/she is…’g’..Feel honoured..you are being attacked because you get your facts straight and disinformation plants don’t like that. In other words, keep up the good work that you do.

Consider that a rocket landed in your neighborhood every couple of days. Mostly, no one gets hurt. A garage, an empty kitchen. No biggie, right?

Or consider that you can’t get food or water for your children because someone is blockading you. Or that someone is bombing your neighborhood not with a few small inaccurate rockets but with many large bombs. Or that many people that you know have been killed, and that if you speak up or take a prominent role you too could get killed. Or that people who stole your land a generation ago keep coming in and shooting up what little you have. I suppose this is no biggie in your world view either.

And let’s not forget that the Israelis’ lives are less miserable than the Pals. It’s surprising that things aren’t yet hopeless.

i wish your understanding of “national interest” was the prevailing one.

Here’s a test:

Name the 2 Israeli soldiers that were purportedly “kidnapped” along the border with Lebanon that was said to have been the pretext for Israel ravaging Lebanon.

Provide links to support your contentions.

Good luck.

As for rockets being lobbed into Israel from elsewhere, google will provide you with evidence of false flag operations in the past whereby Mossad did it themselves.

I don’t take ANYTHING at face value.

When will I get my check from George Soros?

You getting ready to turn you stuff over to the people “we” stole if from are you?

i think i remember when dissent was considered a good thing?

Interesting that you can’t get an answer from Clemons. He’s usually more thoughtful. Not surprised that you got no answer from Clark. It’s so obvious to him, he probably couldn’t even figure out why you asked.

The reason why, unlike you, I don’t bother asking, or unlike Hugh, I no longer think of U.S. interests in serious terms, is because I have not yet found any very serious expert who would think about U.S. interests the way that I would. Thus I resort to sarcasm.

Suppose you can’t move?

Expect the status quo and darn well demand change of the status quo…aka .. the reason you guys voted for Obama

Thanks for the “false flag” reminder. I’m pretty cynical but I always forget to be as cynical as I should be.

Guess you didn’t read my b).

My first reaction to this and the bombings in Gaza by Israel…tears of sorrow from the bottom of my soul.

This is so wrong on so many levels, so ignorant of the final consequences, that it boggles the mind…the idea that the reality of dead civilians, women and children among them will cow the Palestinian people to reject Hamas is delusional…

All it will do and has done, is create hundreds of martyrs, both Hamas fighters and innocents, whose large web of family and friends will harden their hatred of Israel and create even more “terrorists.”

This is another mistake on the level of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon two years ago. Anyone who believes that this does anything to increase the security of Israel, is as delusional as those who felt the occupation of Iraq would increase the security of the US!

Fake rocket attacks in 2005:

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2.....ttack.html

i think steve is a pretty good guy as far as Very Serious People go. but he once, iirc, called some group of anti-war people anti-american and i gave him hell for it. he apologized, which i appreciated, but i’m not sure his first statement wasn’t his true opinion.

i think i have the quote around somewhere…

I don’t take ANYTHING at face value.

..unless it claims that Jews were behind 9/11.

Obama campaigned on improving the image of the US in the world and the world has high hopes. If there is no change epic fail.
402 hrs & 2 min

Actually, I can never agree with the Israelis. Or with Palestinian warfare directed against Israel. Or with the establishment of Israel. Or with any ass who thinks that one side or the other should prevail. There are people there and they will live and die together. For better or worse.

Suppose you can’t move?

Then you learn to live together. Israel has so damaged the Territories that they can not function independently. So rather than a two state solution we are looking at a single state jointly occupied by two peoples with equal rights and responsibilities.

I never use the word “Jews.” That is the language used by the Hasbara operatives like yourself to paint the messenger as “anti-Semitic.”

The conspiracy included Zionists. Mossad was caught red-handed on 9/11 - as you know (Google: “dancing israelis”). One of the foreign entities involved was Israel. I would never imply that anyone involved in 9/11 represented a “religion.” That much evil cannot embrace any religion.

Not saying that I don’t. I just can’t understand what the right response is when you’re being shot at. Disproportionate doesn’t seem the same when it’s your ass.

Oh right, I should have said ‘Zionists.’ Google: Zionist Occupation Government. Nothing antisemitic there.

There never was a point to establishing two states, other than that neither group was willing to trust the other to be reasonable in exercising their rights.

I completely disagree with the Israeli government’s recent actions. But that does not mean that I hold Hamas blameless for their actions. Plenty of blame to go around.

There will be no solution as long as Hamas controls Gaza.

My major problem with Clemons is that he is an incurable name-dropper. But I can live with that. *g*

‘When we blame US foreign policy on Israel or some Jewish cabal,’ it ‘takes the heat off those who are the real decision makers,’ says Penny Rosenwasser, a board member of US-based Jewish Voice for Peace. ‘We need to aim our criticism at the proper targets. US foreign policy is influenced more by corporate interests, the Christian Right and the arms manufacturers than by the Israeli Government.’ Rosenwasser points out that it is US foreign policy that needs to be challenged: ‘Blaming scapegoats diverts us from our work for human rights and justice.’ She sees that some people ‘blur the distinction between the Jewish people and the policies of the Israeli Government’. That’s what happens with phrases like ‘the Jewish Lobby’ where the work of Jews seeking justice for Palestinians is simply erased.

The story about the Jews avoiding the Twin Towers on 11 September? Every aspect of this tale is false. Reporters traced it back to a series of rumours and claims by unnamed sources that bounced around the internet getting more elaborate with each retelling. To take this story seriously, you would have to be willing to assume that if 4,000 random Jews were told of an impending terrorist attack, not one would step forward with a public warning. To believe this about any religious, racial or ethnic group raises serious questions about lingering prejudice.

ZOG Ate My Brains .. an interesting Mossad left-wing critique of antisemitic Zionist conspiracy theories.

oh this is a hoot. the back and forth with steve went on for a couple of threads (with him ignoring me at first), and i think some emails also. anyway, i found the thread where he said he would refrain from using the term anti-american in the future…. only to see that you had commented on it also.

my own faults should be so small. *g*

I completely agree with your first statement. I provisionally agree with your second, but would also add that there will be no solution as long as Kadima or Likud control Israel.

There will be no solution as long as Hamas controls Gaza.

why not?

I’ll see you one. There will be no solution.

Well we have certainly seen that with Israel in a dominant position that it has not exercised its rights in a reasonable fashion. I think though that most Israelis and Palestinians could live in peace together but both need to control their “crazies” –militants on the Palestinian side and settlers on the Israeli one.

One of my pithier comments. I clearly didn’t read any of the others, as I would certainly have engaged you.

I fear you are correct. While there are voices of sanity and rationality on both sides, they are being drowned out by the voices of hate and fear.

Second that.

And the demographics won’t matter for another 30 or more years, long after I’m dead.

All of the polling data show that a substantial majority of both Israelis and Palestinians favor a two state solution with peaceful coexistence. Unfortunately the leadership on both sides has a stake in ratcheting the tensions up as high as they can.

I’m gonna read another chapter of Krugman, then make supper. BBL.

Because Hamas doesn’t want Israel to exist.

ANd that is because Israel refuses to recognize Hamas. Hamas has indicated a willingness to recognize Israel but that does not count.
401 hrs & 33 min

And Likud and Kadima are determined to annex all of the “Kingdom of David” and expel the Palestinians from it. Stalemate.

from the Hamas charter:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. “Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know.”

When did Hamas recognize Israel? When have they expressed a willingness to sit down at the table?

also …
“But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah.” (The Cow - verse 120). There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.

(secret Mossad handshake to TexBetsy)

The problem is that the conditions for a two state solution simply don’t exist whereas those for a single binational state do. Can Palestinians who amount to something like 40% IIRC of the population of Israel-Palestine live on 1/5 to 1/6 of its land? I don’t think so.

you may have seen these, but for those who haven’t: btselem has some excellent maps that show the settlement locations, etc on the west bank. and also jeff halper’s now dated but still very useful analysis and map, matrix of control help document some of the facts on the ground that prevent the possibility of a viable palestinian state.

From the Likud Platform:

Declaration of a State

A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration.

Settlements

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

The Partition of the Negev

Israel rejects out of hand ideas raised by Labor Party leaders concerning the relinquishment of parts of the Negev to the Palestinians. The practical meaning of this plan is that the “Green Line” should no longer be viewed as a “Red Line”, which draws us closer to the partition plan of 1947 as it opens the door to the principle that the fate of the Galilee, the Triangle and additional areas within Israel is negotiable. The Likud asserts that such proposals by the Labor Party leadership may literally cause the dismemberment of the State of Israel.

Because Hamas doesn’t want Israel to exist.

i don’t see why that has to be an impediment to negotiations.

Is Hamas willing to negotiate?

if palestinian refugees had the right of return (as i think both jews and palestinians should), the percentage would probably be even greater.

Is Kadima? I have seen no sign that the leaders of either side have any serious interest in negotiation. It is disingenuous for the Israeli government to proclaim that the Palestinians will not negotiate or live up to their commitments so long as a single settlement sits on the West Bank or Gaza.

http://english.aljazeera.net/n.....41369.html
401 hrs & 20 min

Then the Israelis should boot Kadima out at the next election and the Gazans should elect a new government as well.

Is Hamas willing to negotiate?

when have they refused? carter even went and talked with them when bush and israeli leaders would not.

Israel will not permit a solution so long as Hamas is in control: that has been its position since Hamas was elected.

True, but I see no indication of either being likely. Currently Likud (who are marginally more appalling than Kadima) is leading in Israel and current events are likely to drive the Palestinians toward even more radical leaders.

Good point. Both the US and Israel unilaterally declared that they would not negotiate with Hamas immediately after the election. We have literally no idea whether Hamas is willing to negotiate.

if the israelis kick out kadima, they will likely get likud (likud was ahead in the polls until kadima started bombing gaza).

p.s. i think there probably are too many people piling on you at once. i’m going to give you a break and make it one less for awhile, but would be happy to continue some other time… (((betsy)))

i don’t think likud is leading any more. wikipedia has a nice table of polls. i’ve linked to it before, but it’s worth linking to again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.....tion,_2009

I am not trying to pile on here, just to point out that it goes both ways. That said, what the Israeli government is doing right now is a war crime (according to the UN observer - who is Jewish). The Hamas rocket attacks are as well, but the consequences have been far smaller and far fewer people have been killed by them (more people were killed in the initial air assault than in all of the rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza combined).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl.....inians.usa
401 hrs & 4 min

My statement was not regarding current polling in the upcoming Israeli election. I was responding to Betsy’s comment about Israel needing to reject Kadima (with which I agree). From my perspective, the only party with the support to replace them at present is Likud.

i don’t think you were piling on - just that there were several of us with a similar pov arguing with betsy. thought it might be a little overwhelming. that is all.

re the polls. i misunderstood you then when you wrote: “Currently Likud (who are marginally more appalling than Kadima) is leading in Israel and current events are likely to drive the Palestinians toward even more radical leaders.”

more from siun at the mothership.

before they commit hubristic blunders that decimate the people of Gaza and make sustainable peace and security less achievable?

Well said. I am appalled at what is happening and about my fellow Americans who are not touched by any of this. They don’t even need to drink the kool-aid. They are apathetic.

THOU SHALL NOT KILL, PERIOD.

All followers of the three (3) great Abrahamic religions, Judaism,
Christianity and Islam believe in the Ten (10) Commandments. In our humble
opinion, if anyone killed another innocent human being or himself, he is neither
a Jew, nor a Christian, nor a Muslim, because he disobeyed one of the
most important Commandments of Almighty God (Allah): Thou Shall Not Kill.
……..

Given below are some of the verses from the Holy Qur’an in support
thereof, referring to the number of Surah (Chapter) first followed by
the number of Ayah (Verse), later (from an English translation of the
Holy Qur’an by Mr. Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall).

Yet ye (Children of Israel) it is who slay each other and drive out a
party of your people from their homes, supporting one another against
them by sin and transgression, and if they came to you as captives ye
would ransom them, whereas their expulsion was itself unlawful for you.
Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof?
(2:85)

Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah (God Almighty), and
slay the Prophets wrongfully, and slay those of mankind who enjoin
equity: announce them a painful doom. (3:21)

O ye who believe! eat not up your property among yourselves in
vanities: but let there be amongst you traffic and trade by mutual good-will:
nor kill (or destroy) yourselves (commit suicide): for verily Allah hath
been to you Most Merciful. (4:29)

Never should a believer kill a believer; but (if it so happens) by
mistake (compensation is due): if one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained
that he should free a believing slave and pay compensation to the
deceased’s family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to
a people at war with you and he was a believer, the freeing of a
believing slave (is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have a
treaty of mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family
and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their
means (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance
to Allah: for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom. (4:92)

If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to
abide therein (for ever): and the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him
and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him. (4:93)

For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever
killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the
earth, it shall be as if be had
killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if
he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of
old with clear proofs (of Allah’s sovereignty), but afterwards lo!
many of them became prodigals in the earth. (5:32)

They are losers who besottedly have slain their children without
knowledge, and have forbidden that which Allah bestowed upon them, inventing
a lie against Allah. They indeed have gone astray and are not guided.
(6:140)

Say: “Come I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you
from”: join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents: kill
not your children on a plea of want; We provide sustenance for you and
for them; come not nigh to shameful deeds whether open or secret; take
not life which Allah hath made sacred except by way of justice and law:
thus doth He command you that ye may learn wisdom. (6:151)

O Prophet! when believing women come to thee to take the oath of fealty
to thee that they will not associate in worship any other thing
whatever with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit
adultery (or fornication), that they will not kill their children, that
they will not utter slander intentionally forging falsehood, and that they
will not disobey thee in any just matter then do thou receive their
fealty and pray to Allah for the forgiveness (of their sins): for Allah
is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful. (60:12)

Kill not your children for fear of want: We shall provide sustenance
for them as well as for you: verily the killing of them is a great sin.
(17:31)

And slay not the life which Allah hath forbidden save with right. Whoso
is slain wrongfully, We have given power unto his heir, but let him
not commit excess in slaying. Lo! he will be helped. (17:33)

And those who cry not unto any other god along with Allah, nor take the
life which Allah hath forbidden save in (course of) justice, nor
commit adultery and whoso doeth this shall pay the penalty; (25:68)

Let us pray for the safety of Palestinian civilians who held hostages by Hamas and the safety of Israeli soldiers. May this campaign end swiftly and may Hamas be annihilated. May moderate Muslims emerge victorious in the struggle for Gaza!

http://muslimsagainstsharia.bl.....pt-to.html

War is also a great money maker,no?
Richard Pearle;
In July 2008, The Wall Street Journal reported that Perle had made plans to invest in oil interests in Iraq, in collaboration with Iraqi Kurdish leaders in northern Iraq.[23]

Perle has served as a Director of Hollinger International since June 1994. He is also Co-Chairman of Hollinger Digital Inc. and a Director of Jerusalem Post, both of which are subsidiaries of the Company. He has served as a director of GeoBiotics. On August 31, 2004, a special committee of the Board of Directors investigating the alleged misconduct of the controlling shareholders of Hollinger International submitted the 512-page Breeden Report to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). In the report, Perle is singled out as having breached his fiduciary responsibilities as a company director by authorizing several controversial transactions which diverted the company’s net profit from the shareholders to the accounts of various executives. Perle received over $3 million in bonuses on top of his salary, bringing the total to $5.4 million, and the investigating committee called for him to return the money.

Just the tip of the iceberg,just sayin…

Let us pray for the end of prayers for victory. Let us hope that no one emerges “victorious” in the struggle for Gaza, and, instead, let us hope that peaceful compromise is found.

There is a real problem when Journalist can not get in and get around to verify just what is going on. Surprised we are not hearing more shouting from the International and U.S. MSM press

Israel and ethnic cleansing. There is some history to examine
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (Hardcover)
by Ilan Pappe

http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-C.....1851684670
Ethnic Cleansing: Past, Present and Future
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h123002.html

Abbas accuses Israel of ‘ethnic cleansing’
http://www.usatoday.com/news/w.....mmit_N.htm

Ian Pappe’s book about (important read)
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (Hardcover)
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-C.....1851684670

Why is the absence of journalists a problem?

And if you think that the Israelis are engaged in ethnic cleansing, you probably have a bit of trouble accounting for the large and rapidly growing number of non-Jews in the area. Unless you think that the Israelis are going about it in a sly, sneaky manner.