I don’t see this as doing much more than creating a target-rich environment for the Taliban, warlords, bandits, and assorted other armed individuals roaming at large throughout Afghanistan. We lost this fight in 2003.

Maybe the US should move the triple-Tah Majah US Embassy building in Iraq’s Green Zone from Baghdad to Kabul.

I worry, like Rama, about the safety of all these new folks (hostages, beheadings, family slaughters, etc.)

How many planeloads of $US 100 bills will be flying in with the diplomats for walking around money?

Digg it

Well, this speaks well for Blair and Clinton, IMHO.
A 21st century approach, it would appear?
Encouraging.

By the time
I get to Phoenix

I’d like to see a reduction in the use of US drones added to this plan.

This could also be trumpeted by Warlords as sign of an American takeover of Afghanistan … a claim that would cause a great deal of uproar amongst the citizenry and across the Arab World.

I think (and hope) that ObamaCo has laid the ground work with moderate Arab Leaders, who will spearhead the negotiations.

Well in order to:

“roll back the insurgency’s ability to outgovern the Kabul government in those areas”

You’re going to have to roll back their ability to outgun the Kabul government in those areas. How exactly is it planned to do this without increasing support for the Taliban by slaughtering ever increasing numbers of innocent civilians?

Ya beat me to it, and said it much better than I could.

I’m not impressed by Peter, Mr. End of Iraq Guy. (His brother’s a different story, i.e. a respectable economist.) He seems to be one of those pompous VSPs who go around the world telling other countries what’s good for them. Like the Iraqis should divide their country in 3. Guess he loves the Kurds but seems to be unfamiliar with the difficulty that land-locked countries tend to have.

By “moderate Arab Leaders” do you mean the leaders of the current regimes which are kept in place only by dint of repression of the populace?

Maybe the dudes that throw acid in girls faces when they go to school should be given the keys. . .

Or left alone, like the perps of 10,000 dowry murders/year in India. (Or is it 100,000? I forget.)

That’s Obama’s fault.

Corruption and a failure to provide basic services are two principal problems the Karzai government has. Both are bigger than the Taliban threat. I am not sure that sending Galbraith, Ricciardone, and 300 civilians is going to make much of a difference in this. Also I have questions about Galbraith. He became essentially a lobbyist for Iraqi Kurds. He could skew our policy in Afghanistan in similar ways if any group gets his attention and support.

This has been brought up before but the insertion of civilians into quasi military roles makes life hell for NGOs and their staffs.

Don’t get me started on the injustices that occur in the land of enlightenment … if Gandhi was alive, he might ask the Brits to repossess India.

Certainly beats shooting everything that moves though. It’s worth a try, I think.

How do you know … it’s not like we’ve shot everything yet … *g*

Smiling at you. Crystal ball is a little wonky today.

interesting thread since I was just listening to an npr segment on just this issue

it seems the anti war movement has lost all it’s steem since obama was the anti war candidate and he was elected

yet no matter his rhetoric or promises the end is not in sight…the same thing is to be said (sadly) about his alleged returning the force of our constitution

I wonder what it will take to get the anti war movement back on track

My point is that it is not the job of the Great U.S. Savior to go around the world and “correct” the practices of “savages” of color. That kind of change, it there is to be change, must come internally. I’m sure there were plenty of dowry murders in Ghandi’s day. I’m not that familiar with the practice, but I doubt that the Brits started it.

I’m going to have another glass of wine and catch some March Madness … how’s things ?

The Soviets actually tried that, i.e., total warfare, or shoot anything that moves, in parts of Afghanistan. (Can’t remember which book on Afghanistan that nugget came from.) That didn’t work for them, so we could learn from history, or, alternatively, we could argue that we have more bullets, tanks, missiles, drones, etc. than the Soviets, so it will surely work for us.

Why do moderate Arab Leaders get to have any say in negotiations in Afghanistan?

The Brits really tried to stop it and by law, it has been outlawed since 1961. But the Pols turn a blind eye; in fact, they give away million$ when their kids get married.

And I agree with you that the U.S. has no business playing GlobalCop, but that is the guise under which CorpAmerica steals resources from other nations.

One of the more unpleasant shocks of the last few months was learning from Dubhaltach that those dudes, as you put it, have been around since the 1950s.

I had thought, it transpires on no particularly good grounds, that widespread use of acid throwing as a means of social control was relatively recent in Afghanistan.

Not so alas.

According to Dubhaltach what is relatively new is the use of acid on the face as a first step. Apparently it used to be that acid would be thrown on the legs first – as a warning. Only if the warning went unheeded, for example other girls in a village continuing to attend school, would acid on the face be used.

What do you think the U.S. should do in Afghanistan?

Thing is fine – watching March Madness with White Fang

Nice (but not great) movie on that – Charlie Wilson’s War.

Care for a glass of Shiraz ?

Which team(s) do you favor ?

I’ve got the Wolverines on my TeeVee … *sigh*

Hmmm. Without any knowledge whatsoever, I had thought it was an ancient tribal thing. Though, of course, some less scientific item may have been used before acid. Margolis, on this interview I think, talks about it that way.

Saw Charlie Wilson’s War. Thought it was pretty good. But I’ve read probably nearing 10 books on Afghanistan, so I can no longer remember which part of the story came from which book.

Thanks for the shiraz! *holding out wine glass*

Get to hell out of there while the going is still (relatively) good.

Thanks. My sentiments exactly, but I didn’t want to prejudice your response by giving my opinion first. You know a lot more about it than I do.

I sent an email to some wingnut senator about a week ago. He was bloviating about how awful insurgencies are. My email said: sure fire way to greatly diminish insurgencies and terrorism-stop occupying countries.

Seems so simple, but powerful countries never learn it.

I watched it after Transformers and several Single Malts, so it seemed kinda slow.

… and not even one mention of Opus Dei … *g*

Memphis

I have it on good authority (a couple who lived there) that the “widespread use of acid throwing as a means of social control” was certainly not the case in the years prior to the Taliban. Honor killings were very rare and were prosecuted by the central government as far back as the 1950’s.

They’ll leave … just as soon as all Afghan factions agree to give most of their resources to Western Corporations.

You must have been buzzed. It seemed pretty fast to me. As I knew the story so well, I kept an eye out if they left out important elements. Most were there, but some were squeezed in only a couple of minutes.

Thanks for the link, I’ll listen later, I had the impression that mutilation as a means of control was rare and relatively recent. An increase in its incidence as a response to the threat(s) to the status quo posed by (for example) educating women does make a horrible kind of sense.

Edit/Disclaimer THe person to question about this though is Dubhaltach not me as he’s far more knowledgeable on Afghanistan than I am.

Nope. After they agree to give us everything they’ve got, we need to keep the troops there to protect it & make sure they live up to their “bargain.”

Gotta stay in Afghanistan until the pipeline is built, then stay to protect it.

I remember falling Choppers and Julia kissing Tom Hanks waaaay too many times … oh, to have been Tom Hanks’ lips … *g*

It could be that I heard something different from what he actually said because I brought some bias to the task. This thread has pointed out, again, the pitfalls of thinking you know something from just one reference or two. Dru also has an observation to add. Things are always more complicated than you know.

Gotcha … Oy Vey !

Would it be better if we left the hardliners in charge ?

BTW, the Shiraz is Yellow Tail, which is a bit cheaper than Wolf Blass but my stomach likes it better …

I’m not familiar with either, but I like shiraz in general. I have a moderately priced shiraz-cab blend that I like.

I don’t think Arabs should be in charge of Afghanistan.

Gotcha and agreed ! With the influence that Saudi exerts in that region, the moderates, Indians, Iranians, Pakistanis all have to be at the table, hammering out a regional treaty.

Both are Aussie producers. Wolf Blass takes home a lot of awards every year.

A definition of your terms would be most welcome at this point. I would like to know what you mean by:

1) “Moderate”.

2) “Hardliner”.

I would also like to know how and why you arrogate to yourselves the right to determine how other countrys should be run.

As I understand part of the problem is that the Pashtuns (aka Taliban by inappropriate U.S. labeling), the largest plurality in Afghanistan doesn’t think the Northern Alliance (Tajiks) should be in control of the country either. Porter in this interview states that the Pashtuns refuse to enter a coalition government until all foreign troops leave the country.

I’ll make a note & pick up a couple of bottles. Thanks.

Yea, Perto you warmonger you.

Ya, all Taliban are Pashtun, but all Pashtuns are definitely not Taliban. I hadn’t heard the allegation that Pashtuns refuse to enter a coalition govt; kind of curious since Karzai is a Pashtun, right now in Parliament there is a mix, Pashtun, Uzbek, Tajik, Turkman, Hazara.

Yes, they had to pick a Pashtun for prez because of the population. But it’s my understanding that the important posts in the cabinet are mostly Northern Alliance types (love that guy Abdullah, one name, but U.S. press couldn’t deal with that so they called him Abdullah Abdullah who was foreign minister for a long time and who was an incredibly articulate spokesman during the war.) I don’t know about the parliament. It’s probably a more respresentative mix, but the power is in the cabinet, I think. (Once again, anyone who knows better feel free to straighten me out.)

Warmonger is a great description of people who decide they have the right on “moral” grounds to decide how other countrys should be run. Another word for them is “imperialist”.

Give me a great description for “lecturer”.

On dial up huh?

Somebody who knows what he’s talking about. Get used to it.

Yea pal, I’ve heard your line before. Your little fan club will show up and kiss your ass but I won’t.

I’m unsure by what you mean when you say that throwing acid in a girl’s face makes a terrible kind of sense.
I assume that you’re not endorsing this, but would you explain a bit?

Raven – Your complete inability to deal with the consequences of your participation in that genocidal clusterfuck that your country perpetrated in South East Asia is your problem – not mine. I don’t give a damn about the various chips that you have on your shoulders. Never have given a damn, never will give a damn. Get used to that also.

People and groups who engage in coercion to maintain status differentials generally ramp up the level of their coercive measures in response to failure of their initial coercive measures.

Tell us again how you “are a soldier”.

Oh, so you mean it makes sense in terms of imposing their will in a rather interesting way.
I guess they feel that they have a right on “moral” grounds to do this.
Thanks.

markfromireland- if you are still around; Naoroz M’barak to you and yours.

Thanks:

We’ve got a fairly large Kurdish contingent on the team for “Guides” – I’ll make sure to pass on your greeting.

G’night.

Still got steam comin’ off your feathers?

Not really, I like annoying him. He doesn’t know the first thing about me but he likes to dredge up the Nam like he has a clue. I’m sure he has valuable things to say but the condescending shit doesn’t cut it for me.

It helped keep me awake for this late Illini game.

Yeah, I’m sure that, on the one hand, he has valuable things
Enjoy the game.

I said that.

maybe if you keep saying it , it might come true.

Just checking in here, haven’t read above.

But this is just like post Dien Bien Phu.

And I know.

My father got his JOB with the State Department in ’53 based on a similar rush to fight Communism.

Only, The Dulles Brothers won out, the military won out then, and killed the civilian programs of help to wage war.

Damn. Just like the last time.

I see a LOT of similarity in this ruse.

It’s a cover for more military to come, and in the meantime, it’s a ruse to fund budgets in the Pentagon, be they under the auspecies of civvie programs or not.

Damn. This really comes back to me . . . damn.

Same patterns . . . over and over and over again . . .

Damn. Thanks Spencer, for posting this . . . go look at some history of our Fool’s Rushed In post Dien Bien Phu.

Look at USOM, AID. Dulles Brothers. Back that to the business corporations (aside from the war machine one’s like DOW Chem, DuPont and others) who supported a more military presence rather than a civilian advisory corps.

Damn. Same as it ever was . . . .

… the moderates, Indians, Iranians, Pakistanis all have to be at the table, hammering out a regional treaty.

If a treaty could be done that would be the way to do it. But, if you ask the people of Pakistan and India you would probably hear that it would be either extremely difficult or impossible to get and keep.

America’s interests very likely wouldn’t coincide with their and that complicates things.

I guess they feel that they have a right on “moral” grounds to do this [ throwing acid in a girl’s face for getting an education ].

It sounds about like torturing women who were accused of being a witch. If they die the body will be freed when the witch leaves, so it’s alright (in their view).

If Islam is everything, then what does it mean to throw acid in a girl’s face? If you’re saving them for all eternity, then it’s nothing.

There is a logic, but it doesn’t allow the girl to decide her own fate and it doesn’t allow for the possibility they are wrong about Islam or that Islam would allow for such a punishment. It’s entirely inflexible…which is an indication of fundamentalism.

To reply top myself, up at #73:

Or it’s just the same stupid mistakes all over again.

I’m all FOR civvie programs to sort out our foreign policy issues.

But I fear, like before, they will fail from lack of full support, opposition from the Pentagon, and politicians who are greased by the War Machine to support guns, rather than butter.

THAT’S the pattern of SE Asia regarding post Dien Bien Phu.

Of course, there’s the pattern of US Gunboat Diplomacy in the early 20th Century, like in China, too.

Similar in many ways. Civilian support abrogated by special ops and then military ops.

Sigh. Just like I was young again, hiding behind mattresses in a drywall house in the US Compound in Vientienne, Laos while the ‘insurgent’s’ around us swarmed up and over.

Took the Capital, The US Embassy (where pops was pinned down for two weeks) and then let us all go.

Later, in 6 months, we ended up destitute in ‘62 stateside. With tix home and basic goods shipped. And my old man blackballed.

I see patterns, others, they may see dead people walking. *G*

What are you saying that you see as comparable to early 60’s SE Asia?

Infusion of civvie efforts . . . . into a sitch we can’t and never will be able, to control no matter WHAT amount of civvie efforts we pour into it.

And, we’ve been the BAD influence military before, too . . . so now we’re coming with civvie compassion? S’heah,. that will sell well in Talibaini turf . . .

And now, we want to sell humanity and civvie goodies?

Like we did in SE Asia in the 50’s?

We sold a bill of goods, civvie wise.

And then, we pulled it out, and sent in more guns, bombs, and death.

That would be my point of speaking of the 50’s, as drawn to where I think this effort to employ ‘civvie’ efforts to solve our Afghani problem.

It won’t work, it won’t be fully supported, it will be subjugated by military/pentagon interests, and it will be driven by all the profiteering mongrels of our history we know about.

And it will fail, and more than a few innocent civvies of our citizens (like my father, like our family, like many others from SE Asie back then) will be fucked, when they stand up for what they believe in.

Kapiche? *G*

I wanted to be sure that you meant Afghanistan.
I can see the possibility of our involvement getting way out of hand, depending upon what happens in Pakistan.
I’m quite curios as to what you mean by subjugated by military/pentagon interests.