Comments on: “While We Were There A Large Part of the Time We Were Focused On Trying To Establish A Link Between Al Qaeda And Iraq And We Were Not Being Successful In Establishing A Link Between Al Qaeda And Iraq” http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/ Wed, 05 Jan 2011 21:59:36 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: MarkH http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9243 MarkH Thu, 23 Apr 2009 02:09:15 +0000 http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9243 <blockquote><p>First, Chalabi gave us “CurveBall” and just about everything else he gave us was useless on Iraq.<br /> Besides Chalabi, members of the administration had also hitched their wagons to Laurie Mylroie who had the same cockamamie theory.</p></blockquote> <p>Mylroie wrote a book with Judy Miller who used Chalabi as a source for various things about the Middle East. It’s therefore quite easy to imagine Chalabi was the ONLY source, though filtered through various people.</p> <p>And, Chalabi had a self interest in telling his story.</p>

First, Chalabi gave us “CurveBall” and just about everything else he gave us was useless on Iraq.
Besides Chalabi, members of the administration had also hitched their wagons to Laurie Mylroie who had the same cockamamie theory.

Mylroie wrote a book with Judy Miller who used Chalabi as a source for various things about the Middle East. It’s therefore quite easy to imagine Chalabi was the ONLY source, though filtered through various people.

And, Chalabi had a self interest in telling his story.

]]> By: MarkH http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9242 MarkH Thu, 23 Apr 2009 02:06:31 +0000 http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9242 <blockquote><p>The rethugs are quite up in arms over this. But how many want to go forward? Congress would be torn apart over this. Remember how the repigs backed everything that bush did? Remember how they stifled dissent? Would forcing this onto the public stage result in the rethugs retaking the govt? Something to think about, no??</p></blockquote> <p>Officer: Your papers sir!<br /> timr: Here they are.<br /> Officer: Everything appears to be in order. Keep walking.</p>

The rethugs are quite up in arms over this. But how many want to go forward? Congress would be torn apart over this. Remember how the repigs backed everything that bush did? Remember how they stifled dissent? Would forcing this onto the public stage result in the rethugs retaking the govt? Something to think about, no??

Officer: Your papers sir!
timr: Here they are.
Officer: Everything appears to be in order. Keep walking.

]]> By: MarkH http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9241 MarkH Thu, 23 Apr 2009 01:49:25 +0000 http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9241 <p>Was it faith-based or wish-based foreign policy when Bush & co believed…BELIEVED…it was Saddam who attacked us on 9/11?</p> <p>They certainly tried hard enough to show a connection between AQ and Saddam.</p> <p>They seemed to certainly accept that AQ WAS involved. What was their evidence? It still doesn’t feel as though the most solid evidence of their involvement, aside from the appearance of their modus operandi, has been made public. Why was there almost immediate certainty that it was AQ?</p> Was it faith-based or wish-based foreign policy when Bush & co believed…BELIEVED…it was Saddam who attacked us on 9/11?

They certainly tried hard enough to show a connection between AQ and Saddam.

They seemed to certainly accept that AQ WAS involved. What was their evidence? It still doesn’t feel as though the most solid evidence of their involvement, aside from the appearance of their modus operandi, has been made public. Why was there almost immediate certainty that it was AQ?

]]> By: worldwidehappiness http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9231 worldwidehappiness Thu, 23 Apr 2009 00:04:15 +0000 http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9231 <blockquote><p>“…we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful in establishing a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish this link… there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results.”</p></blockquote> <p>So it wasn’t to stop a ticking time bomb?</p> <p>It was for Bush to get justification for invading Iraq?</p> <p>But that couldn’t be right.</p>

“…we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful in establishing a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish this link… there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results.”

So it wasn’t to stop a ticking time bomb?

It was for Bush to get justification for invading Iraq?

But that couldn’t be right.

]]> By: burqa http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9224 burqa Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:23:49 +0000 http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9224 <blockquote><p>“…But for most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there.” </p></blockquote> <p>First, Chalabi gave us “CurveBall” and just about everything else he gave us was useless on Iraq.<br /> Besides Chalabi, members of the administration had also hitched their wagons to Laurie Mylroie who had the same cockamamie theory.</p> <p>What we had was another example of the Bush administration committing the logical error of beginning with a conclusion and then seeking supporting evidence, all the while rejecting that which was contrary.</p> <p>Beginning shortly after 9/11, the Bush administration was repeatedly told by our intelligence agencies there was no al Qaeda/Iraq connection. This is what the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence reported and so did the 9/11 Commission and British intelligence told us the same thing.</p> <p>“You can’t distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam.”<br /> - President George W. Bush, Sept. 25, 2002</p> <p>“If we’re successful in Iraq…then we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who had us under assault for many years, but most especially on 9/11…..”<br /> - Vice President Dick Cheney, Sept. 14, 2003, on Meet the Press </p> <p>“There’s overwhelming evidence” [of an al Qaeda/Iraq connection]<br /> - Vice President Dick Cheney, Jan. 2004</p>

“…But for most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there.”

First, Chalabi gave us “CurveBall” and just about everything else he gave us was useless on Iraq.
Besides Chalabi, members of the administration had also hitched their wagons to Laurie Mylroie who had the same cockamamie theory.

What we had was another example of the Bush administration committing the logical error of beginning with a conclusion and then seeking supporting evidence, all the while rejecting that which was contrary.

Beginning shortly after 9/11, the Bush administration was repeatedly told by our intelligence agencies there was no al Qaeda/Iraq connection. This is what the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence reported and so did the 9/11 Commission and British intelligence told us the same thing.

“You can’t distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam.”
– President George W. Bush, Sept. 25, 2002

“If we’re successful in Iraq…then we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who had us under assault for many years, but most especially on 9/11…..”
– Vice President Dick Cheney, Sept. 14, 2003, on Meet the Press

“There’s overwhelming evidence” [of an al Qaeda/Iraq connection]
– Vice President Dick Cheney, Jan. 2004

]]> By: Leen http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9222 Leen Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:03:52 +0000 http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9222 <p>In Ron Susskind’s book the “Price of Loyalty” former Secretary of the Treasury Paul O’neil insinuates that it was Wolfowitz and Cheney pushing for a confrontation with Iraq far more than Rumfeld.</p> <p>Where has Wolowitz been hiding out since he lost his job at the World Bank</p> In Ron Susskind’s book the “Price of Loyalty” former Secretary of the Treasury Paul O’neil insinuates that it was Wolfowitz and Cheney pushing for a confrontation with Iraq far more than Rumfeld.

Where has Wolowitz been hiding out since he lost his job at the World Bank

]]> By: Leen http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9221 Leen Wed, 22 Apr 2009 20:01:15 +0000 http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9221 <p>“don’t forget his enablers”</p> <p>they sure have trying hard to keep a lid on accountability for quite some time</p> “don’t forget his enablers”

they sure have trying hard to keep a lid on accountability for quite some time

]]> By: timr http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9220 timr Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:00:52 +0000 http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9220 <p>As we discovered at the Nurmemburg Trials the banality of evil was the most confounding feature of the defendents. History repeats itself. The second time as farce. So we find bureaucrats in the bush administration writing memos and approving torture as simply and matter of factly as possible. Every one of them, from the CIA people who came up with the idea that using North Korean interrogation techniques from the Korean war(used in SERE classes) to the lawyers in DoJ who strained to come up with legal defenses to others such as POTUS and VPOTUS along with people working directly for them and SecDef rumsfeld are simply normal people. With blind spots where their humanity should be. The evil is so banal. The people who did this were mostly lifelong bureaucrats, the gray people who simply did what they were told without thought. The German defense was; Orders are orders. That did not work then, it should not work now. But what about those who physically did the torturing? Were they simply doing what they were told? Or are sadists so easy to find? Listening to the arguments being raised thruout the internet and in the MSM one has to wonder, just how shallow is our civilization? We make laws so that large numbers of people can live and function together without-for the most part-killing each other. Again, is it really this easy to discard our civilized manner and revert to the law of the jungle? Aside from laws, which it seems a govt can simply ignore, what is to prevent a future govt from doing this again? What is to prevent a police agency from torturing prisoners(now I would say that before Miranda-and some up to this day-prisoners were routinely tortured to get confessions)what is to prevent torture from becoming used on a daily basis by all police/law agencies in the US? What is to prevent torture from being enshrined in law? Used in court to determine guilt? As the bush administration did and as the Obama administration seems to want to cover up. ….Anyone? I think that I can see why Obama does not want to dig further into this. Currently the US is an equally divided country. If the Obama administration were to push hard for trials from those who were responsible, would it tear the country apart? The rethugs are quite up in arms over this. But how many want to go forward? Congress would be torn apart over this. Remember how the repigs backed everything that bush did? Remember how they stifled dissent? Would forcing this onto the public stage result in the rethugs retaking the govt? Something to think about, no??</p> <p> One thing that I must take note of is that all who were involved in this that have been named seem to be Authoritarians. Some Followers=AFs and some leaders=ALs, but all of them with an authoritarian mindset. Maybe it takes an authoritarian to order torture or to accept that torture is not only merely normal but should be used. I can not name 1 person who is defending torture who is not of an authoritarian mindset.<br /> Current studies show that about 30% of people in the US are authoritarian, either leaders or followers. These people have a mindset that allows them see as normal behavior things that non authoritarians believe are horrifying</p> As we discovered at the Nurmemburg Trials the banality of evil was the most confounding feature of the defendents. History repeats itself. The second time as farce. So we find bureaucrats in the bush administration writing memos and approving torture as simply and matter of factly as possible. Every one of them, from the CIA people who came up with the idea that using North Korean interrogation techniques from the Korean war(used in SERE classes) to the lawyers in DoJ who strained to come up with legal defenses to others such as POTUS and VPOTUS along with people working directly for them and SecDef rumsfeld are simply normal people. With blind spots where their humanity should be. The evil is so banal. The people who did this were mostly lifelong bureaucrats, the gray people who simply did what they were told without thought. The German defense was; Orders are orders. That did not work then, it should not work now. But what about those who physically did the torturing? Were they simply doing what they were told? Or are sadists so easy to find? Listening to the arguments being raised thruout the internet and in the MSM one has to wonder, just how shallow is our civilization? We make laws so that large numbers of people can live and function together without-for the most part-killing each other. Again, is it really this easy to discard our civilized manner and revert to the law of the jungle? Aside from laws, which it seems a govt can simply ignore, what is to prevent a future govt from doing this again? What is to prevent a police agency from torturing prisoners(now I would say that before Miranda-and some up to this day-prisoners were routinely tortured to get confessions)what is to prevent torture from becoming used on a daily basis by all police/law agencies in the US? What is to prevent torture from being enshrined in law? Used in court to determine guilt? As the bush administration did and as the Obama administration seems to want to cover up. ….Anyone? I think that I can see why Obama does not want to dig further into this. Currently the US is an equally divided country. If the Obama administration were to push hard for trials from those who were responsible, would it tear the country apart? The rethugs are quite up in arms over this. But how many want to go forward? Congress would be torn apart over this. Remember how the repigs backed everything that bush did? Remember how they stifled dissent? Would forcing this onto the public stage result in the rethugs retaking the govt? Something to think about, no??

One thing that I must take note of is that all who were involved in this that have been named seem to be Authoritarians. Some Followers=AFs and some leaders=ALs, but all of them with an authoritarian mindset. Maybe it takes an authoritarian to order torture or to accept that torture is not only merely normal but should be used. I can not name 1 person who is defending torture who is not of an authoritarian mindset.
Current studies show that about 30% of people in the US are authoritarian, either leaders or followers. These people have a mindset that allows them see as normal behavior things that non authoritarians believe are horrifying

]]> By: mpower1952 http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9219 mpower1952 Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:53:10 +0000 http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9219 <p>Senator Levin just said on MSNBC that Jane Dalton the lawyer for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff was working on a legal assessment of the request for authority to use these techniques when she got word from the Chairman that the attorney for the Secretary of Defense wanted that assessment to stop.</p> <p>He mentioned the “squelching of dissent.”</p> <p>John McCain ,who endorsed the document, and others just sent a letter to President Obama asking that the lawyers not be prosecuted. Is that Cheney trying to protect Addington?</p> Senator Levin just said on MSNBC that Jane Dalton the lawyer for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff was working on a legal assessment of the request for authority to use these techniques when she got word from the Chairman that the attorney for the Secretary of Defense wanted that assessment to stop.

He mentioned the “squelching of dissent.”

John McCain ,who endorsed the document, and others just sent a letter to President Obama asking that the lawyers not be prosecuted. Is that Cheney trying to protect Addington?

]]> By: mpower1952 http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9218 mpower1952 Wed, 22 Apr 2009 18:33:13 +0000 http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/04/22/while-we-were-there-a-large-part-of-the-time-we-were-focused-on-trying-to-establish-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq-and-we-were-not-being-successful-in-establishing-a-link-between-al-qaeda-and-iraq/#comment-9218 <p>Sorry, my last comment was to Hugh.</p> <p>Hey, don’t forget his enablers in the House and Senate.</p> Sorry, my last comment was to Hugh.

Hey, don’t forget his enablers in the House and Senate.

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