Let me explain this one. Ali Soufan, the well-respected retired FBI agent and al-Qaeda expert who recently wrote about his experiences interrogating Abu Zubaydah without torturing him, testifies before a Senate Judiciary subcommittee tomorrow morning. In advance of his testimony, I went through last year’s Justice Department inspector-general report on the role of the FBI in torture. I’ll confess to you right now: I read the executive summary when it came out last year and that was it. It’s over 400 pages long. But I went back through it because I saw some apparent discrepancies between what Soufan wrote and what the Red Cross found from the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah.
The Washington Independent published what I found today. Bottom line is that the report mostly backs up Soufan. The further away you get from the details, the more it supports his account. But when you drill down, you see some discrepancies — not just about him, but about the broader narrative that the FBI was an outpost of institutional opposition to torture.
According to the report, the FBI’s role in Abu Zubaydah’s interrogation caused significant internal alarm as to whether the bureau was acting outside its legal authority. The incident “led to the decision” from Director Robert Mueller that “FBI agents should not participate in interrogations using non-FBI techniques.” But it took the FBI two years after that decision to issue a “formal policy addressing participation in joint interrogations with other agencies in overseas locations,” in May 2004. The inspector general was unable to establish when exactly Mueller made that decision, as numerous Justice Department and FBI officials said they could not recall when exactly it occurred, estimating that Mueller gave his guidance “in approximately August 2002.” Afterward, however, FBI agents participated in numerous interrogations in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo Bay that went far beyond the traditional “relationship-building techniques” employed by the bureau.
One such interrogation involved “Thomas.” ["Thomas" is likely a pseudonym for Soufan.] At Guantanamo Bay, beginning in late July or early August 2002 — very soon after being withdrawn from the Abu Zubaydah interrogation — “Thomas” interrogated Mohammed al-Qatani, who was suspected of being a part of the 9/11 conspiracy and who was detained in Afghanistan after he was unable to enter the U.S. through Orlando in the summer of 2001. “Thomas,” the report reads, “had already obtained confessions from several detainees” at Guantanamo; the commander of the detention facility called him “a national treasure.”
“Thomas” does not appear to have objected to the interrogation of al-Qatani, whatever his objections to the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah a few months prior. According to the report, “Thomas” recommended the use of non-FBI interrogation techniques on al-Qatani, including moving him “to a more remote location at GTMO so that he would not get social support from the other detainees.” The FBI case agent at Guantanamo, known by the pseudonym “Demeter,” noted to the inspector general that “isolation is not normally employed by law enforcement agencies” but could be “a very effective technique,” and so “Demeter” and “Thomas” received approval from unnamed “senior officials… up their chain of command” for use of the technique.”
Read the whole thing. It’s a nuanced piece; or it is if I succeeded.
Now: why’d I write it? Why’d I want to write it? Just to be clear here: I have no interest in attacking Soufan. It concerned me that the details of the FBI’s role in all this were getting glossed over by a reductive portrait of them as the White Hats. If the piece reads like a purity hunt, then I failed. Instead, what I wanted to do was match the new information Soufan put into the public record with the information that the IG report compiled, ahead of Soufan’s testimony. The picture is a complicated one, and I’ll be covering the hearing tomorrow to see if Soufan addresses those complexities.



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As I reflect back on that time period one thing I remember vividly was how much of 9-11 was blamed on poor cooperation and coordination within the intelligence agencies. I wonder if that influenced the FBI’s decision to continue to work with the CIA on these interrogations even after questions had been raised about the tactics being used. I don’t necessarily look at Soufan as a white hat for his actions but I do appreciate the fact that he spoke up to correct the record on Zubaydah. But another question has to be asked eventually and that is why if he saw these things and why if it became well known that it was going on at FBI headquarters wasn’t anyone arrested on the spot? To that end I kind of have a question. I am almost positive that if the CIA was torturing an American citizen then the FBI would have jurisdiction to arrest and bring those agents in who participated. But when it comes to the CIA torturing foreign agents at a time predating the Supreme Court ruling that the Geneva Conventions applied to enemy combatants, would the FBI even have jurisdiction? I think before its all said and done someone will end up having to answer that question.
Oh and thats an excellent piece by you in the Independent.
Wow. Good work Spencer. If only more journalists did the legwork you do, it’d be a working democracy!!!
Unless there’s more than you say here, it seems that the interrogator recommended isolation, but none of the other abusive practices associated with Yoo, Bybee, and Guantanamo, though he was aware of worse things going on.
In related news, Glen Greenwald has a column this morning about how the Obama Administration threatened to suspend intelligence sharing with the UK if a court publicized details of how the CIA had tortured a detainee.
Obama administration threatens Britain to keep torture evidence concealed
thanks for the linky. it really is a Pandora’s box isn’t it?
If true, this is a really ugly side of Obama we’d not yet seen. Declining to prosecute the authors of the torture policy is bad enough. Threatening to withhold intelligence from allies who won’t help conceal that torture takes it to another level.
4 – Soufan was aware of and utilizing much more than just “isolation” on al-Qahtani. Spencer’s article makes clear that there were efforts at time dislocation, sensory overload (constant white light), and exposure to extreme cold. Soufan apparently also used the “futility” approach, e.g., “this is your place until you change your story.”
Al-Qahtani was a key prisoner, in that he was evidently a test or experimental case for various interrogation techniques. The Aug. 2, 2002 Gitmo minutes on a “counter-resistance strategy” meeting at Guantanamo (the one that included CIA counsel Fredman, of whom Spencer wrote the other day) specifically mentions analyzing the “certain types of deprivation and psychological stressors” used on al-Qahtani.
It’s a very good, very comprehensive article by Spencer, but I have two additions. One is to note that it was the FBI’s supposed “effective” interrogation that brought about the “intel” on Jose Padilla and the “dirty bomb”, claims that never held up, if they were ever true in any sense to begin with.
Secondly, the record of the FBI is far worse than usually portrayed, and again Spencer is right on this, though he need not be apologetic. The FBI abuse begins right after 9/11, especially with the case of John Walker Lindh, per the narrative of former Justice Department official Jesselyn Radack:
When the DoJ OIG report came out, I labeled it “a limited hangout, i.e., an admission of some crimes, but a cover-up of the total barbaric scenario unfolding in Bush’s torture prisons.”
The ACLU said:
Note, btw, that the OIG report says that the CIA never allowed OIG to interview Zubaydah; such questioning then might have cleared up some of the questions we have now.
Keep asking the questions, Spencer. I think we’ll find that while some FBI agents protested, most were concerned, and certainly the agency itself was mostly concerned with covering its own legal ass. We will also find that some higher officials in FBI were more closely tied to the SERE story than has been thus far revealed.