Oops – posted this at The Streak. Probably belongs here.
Rockefeller also claims the CIA chart is wrong. He told TPM that he wasn’t briefed in February 2003 (the famous asterisk that says he got an individual briefing separate from Roberts) and it wasn’t until September 2003 that he was briefed. He also says the chart exaggerates the extent of what he was told about.

Here’s the TPMMuckracker link to the comment from Rockefeller’s office.

So Pelosi, Graham and Rockefeller all claim that the CIA chart has inaccuracies.

And if the CIA is saying that the chart reflects their records, then clearly the 3 Dems are disagreeing with the contents of the CIA records.

The question might be raised, but it’s not answered. I asked CIA spokesman George Little whether Graham is telling the truth and he declined comment.

I’ll take that as a “yes”.

Spot on!

I wonder if Bush’s CIA fiddled with the documents or added names here and there for future use to protect their hides? Could be. This could be why the current CIA can’t get the timeline straight (maybe missing documents? Shredded documents I might add) or has additional names added to these meetings to throw everyone off? Could be.

I trust Nancy Pelosi at this point no matter how hard the MSM is trying to spin it to support the republicans over her! Even Contessa Brewer of MSNBC seemed pissed that Pelosi explained herself well today. Brewer and others spinned everything Nancy said in response! Disgusting.

Why would anyone expect the CIA to ever tell the truth?

It’s interesting that Hoekstra (who wasn’t even involved in the process until 2005) is making all these accusations. Roberts…who likely knows precisely who was briefed and when…is deadly silent.

If it was the September 2003 briefing that Rockefeller attended it was some sort of power-point presentation showing slides of enhanced vs. non-enhanced techniques. It also doesn’t mention, by name, waterboarding.

If there was some sort of slide show the specific content of that briefing should be known and preserved, at least for those parts…unless those too were destroyed?

e-gad I actually watched Tweety’s take on Pelosi’s statement – and not a peep about Senator Graham from any of them

It looks like the Goss-Cheney operation at the CIA is derailing. Is Cheney losing his control?

Here’s a link for anyone that would like to see what Obama and Cheney would like to keep from the public.

http://georgewashington2.blogs…..obama.html

The whole thing derailed long ago for anyone who is looking, which excludes the MSM, which is keeping the alternative universe alive with bubble gum and shoe laces.

They’re far from infallible.

Heh. Many years ago I figured out that W would destroy records. It was summer, can’t remember which year, maybe 03 or 04, but I know exactly where I was: on my bicycle passing by the entrance to the Mohonk Mountain House. (Click on the link. It’s the closest place to heaven on earth that I know.)

But, until your comment, I had not thought about the fact that they would salt documents where it would help them most. Thanks!

Does that mean that the CIA might inadvertantly tell the truth by accident?

This could be why the CIA refuses to release the documents Cheney wants released, because they know:

1) The documents don’t exist and Cheney is bluffing
2) The documents do exist and they don’t support Cheney’s claims at all
3) Or…the documents do exist, but the CIA is holding onto them because Obama’s DOJ would like to have them to use against him

Could be any of the above, but each day, it’s looking very bad for Cheney and this is why the American Taliban members are coming out full force against Nancy Pelosi in the hopes the investigation will be of her instead of Cheney!

I’ll take it as an emphatic, “yes!”

The reason I heard, think on KO, was that the docs are part of the FOIA lawsuit that Obama was fighting and that the outcome of that case will determine whether they’re released or not.

It is difficult to discern between bureaucratic ineptitude that occurs naturally versus times when it is manufactured to hide wrongdoing.

Gorgeous destination! Thanks for sharing it, eCAHN!

I know. I’ve been thinking about the CIA, their lying, and the actions of the republicans over the last week or so and I’ve come to the conclusion they’re all lying and chances are there are lots of documents missing and some of the documents that do exist have been altered in some way. Seems strange that Leon Panetta would get is so wrong (Graham’s meetings/briefing totals), but I think he’s going by what is there. Who knows, but I do feel in my heart that Nancy is telling the truth. She appeared nervous today, but she told a lot of truth that many didn’t want to hear and that was the CIA lied & deceived the Congress to help the Bush Regime! I was very proud of her.

Why do I get the feeling the Little doesn’t feel obligated to tell the public the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Oh, okay. I hadn’t heard that part. Even so, if Obama is trying to block this then we know this means it’s juicy information! I know Obama wants to look ahead, but he also knows how outraged we Americans can get (LOL). We will not let this crap just sit and fester. We will continue the push for transparency despite what he wants.

I think Cheney is in the crosshairs of the DOJ. Feels that way and it could be why the republicans are acting so desperate right now. John Boner had that psychotic calm today at his presser. He so badly wants Pelosi to take the fall but he knows the evidence is to the contrary!

I tuned into the Pelosi presser shortly after it began. Thought she did a good job, for a change. I particularly liked that she said the CIA always lied to congress, and that it wouldn’t do any good to object to what the Ws were doing, instead they needed to concentrate on changing administrations. Now some might disagree (I don’t) but she said it in no uncertain terms and it’s certainly a defensible position to take.

Obama’s trying to keep the unitary prez that the Rs so nicely created for him. I don’t think there’s anything more going on with Obama taking the W position on all the ongoing lawsuits. It might backfire on Obama (fingers crossed) if the courts do what they should, but he’s rolling the dice.

Absolutely she was focusing on getting more Democrats in the House as the Minority Leader and focusing on the 2004 election. We were too! LOL She was not on the House Intelligence Committee when she learned that waterboarding was being done, you know, done before she was briefed in September 2002. I did the ole pump-fist-in-the-air when she said the CIA lied & deceived her as they did everyone! Because it’s true.

Maddow reported right off the bat that Cheney in December 2001 was searching out the SERE trainers. Oh boy. If Cheney goes to jail before I die, I will die a happy woman!

Clearly, this is not the first time CIA has lied to protect Bush and Cheney. I’m just thinking back, trying to remember other instances of CIA protecting them…

If Cheney goes to jail before I die, I’ll instantly die of a heart attack. *g*

I have a strong feeling the courts will prevail and the photos will be released. I also think the Cheney FOIA documents will also be released. President Obama needs to focus on healthcare and the economy while the rest of us (including his DOJ) focus on transparency and holding the Bush Criminals accountable.

LOL *holding heart paddles just in case I have to resuscitate you*

Sounds a lot like Monday morning quarterbacking. Truth is when the Dems were in the minority they failed to be an effective opposition party and since the 2006 midterms they have (mostly) failed as a majority party. I will continue to cast votes for Democrats as the lesser of evils but continue to wish I had a better alternative.

Read The CIA Culture of Failure by John Diamond. Goes into detail about how the CIA helped out the Ws and why.

Steny and Jane don’t mind giving Nancy trouble either. It’s a tough town but my money is on Pelosi.

Maybe this is why Graham was warned years ago to NOT keep a detailed diary! Could be. The Regime was forging documents etc. and didn’t want anyone to have an accurate timeline of events!

The Ds couldn’t do anything to influence what the Ws were doing. That’s the part that I agree with Pelosi. The part that I agree with you is that she & the Ds could have gotten publicity for opposing what the Ws were doing. But neither Pelosi nor any other leading D that I can think of seems to appreciate the purpose of doing that.

My money is on her too. She voted against the use of force against Iraq. Harman voted for it. I think Hoyer voted for it too. Nancy has her days when the botox makes it hard to talk, but I am one who actually listens to what she’s saying rather than focusing on that stuff. Today the MSM focused on her voice and actions and didn’t listen to a word she said! So frustrating! Then Boner comes out as the creep he is to continue the spinning & lies to protect the Bush Regime criminals. What a pathetic display today. Nancy was the only one speaking the truth.

The fact is…..the Bush Regime CLASSIFIED EVERYTHING so the D’s could not say a word nor the republicans when they wanted to. There were no accidents under the 8 years of George Bush & Dick Cheney. It was all well-orchestrated and thought out by them.

In a word, yeah.

Well, I have to say that Obama’s wanting to look forward not backward by sweeping torture under the rug has really worked. There’s no news whatsoever on torture to distract Obama. /s

But neither Pelosi nor any other leading D that I can think of seems to appreciate the purpose of doing that.

It’s a pretty rare pol who is motivated by anything resembling altruism. Dennis Kucinich was probably one but as always his was a voice in the wilderness.

What do you make of the leak of the Iran NIE? I imagine that was very helpful to the Bushes as well and that they had already regained control over George Jr. at that point. I am convinced that the Bushes intend to see Cheney fry. It suits all of their purposes.

Sen. Feingold has seen them…and specifically has said that they DON’T say what Cheney claims they say.

During the last couple years the Bush junta was slowly losing it’s grip on power. In the early days that NIE would have been squashed before it saw the light of day.

As I recall, the summary of the Iran NIE was released not leaked, but I could be wrong.

One of the themes of Culture of Failure is that the CIA careens from one mistake to the opposite one, having been humiliated by the first mistake. I look at the Iran NIE in that context, i.e., that the CIA was humiliated by the Iraq WMD debacle and was determined not to make that mistake again. However, the Iran NIE looks to be reasonably accurate, for a change, not an opposite mistake as so often happened in the past.

What makes you think W is out to get Cheney?

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Spencer Ackerman and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Thank you for the great work you do, you are a perfect complement to Marcy and her work…between the two of you, we here at FDL have enough information to begin to understand just exactly what is happening to our world and just how dangerous a pile of fissionable material we are sittin’ on at this moment in the world’s history.

I would like to offer this view of where we are at the moment and what it is that Obama is doin and where I think he is tryin’ ta take us.

First of all, since 1946 the corporate oligarchy has developed a shadow security state apparatus inside the US government that has used the existing democratic institutions to fund and insulate the secruty apparatus and it’s economy from the influence of democratic politics. Increasingly foreign and domestic policy in the US have been made by the corporate decision makers to grow the power and influence and material holdings of the corporate cabal to the point that decisions about war and domestic law are all made in the interest of corporate power. Any movement toward change or social-political progress has been stilled by the security state. Presidents have been assasinated and laws have been written to intimidate, jail or murder citizens to keep social movements from effecting political change.

We now have a military-security state that has grown more powerful than the elected political leadership is capable of controlling with simple executive action…that’s where Obama sits now and that’s why he has taken some of the decisions he has taken recently, like the stand on domestic spying and the withholding of the torture pictures. He is trying to get the federal courts to direct the inforcement of the law, taking the political heat off the executive and avoiding the confusion and waste of time that would result from congressional efforts to correct the problems. If the federal courts do not reign in the abuse of executive power in matters like domestic spying, release of information and torture, then he can move to use those very powers himself against the security state…in fact what he is playin’ is a very ballsy game of chicken with the corporate oligarchy…he’s tellin’ the courts to do their job, givin’ him the political cover to move forward to expose and ultimatelydestroy the beast that threatens to end our 200 year experiment with representative government.

Obama understands that it will take all three branches of democratic government to stand up to the power of the fascist security state and that he and the Congress can not do it alone.

I know I’m gunna get a lotta shit for sayin’ this but I’m gettin’ tired of a lot of the so-called “progressives” who are willin’ to cut off our legs because we have a sore toe without understanding and supporting efforts to engage ALL the mechanisms of our democracy to save ourselves.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THIS WAR IS OURS, WE’VE PAID FOR IT AND NOW WE HAFTA FIGHT TO END IT!!!

Hillary Clinton said she doesn’t consider Cheney a reliable source. Neither does anyone with half a brain. Unfortunately that excludes the MSM who continue to provide him with a wheelbarrow and shovel to spread his bullshit.

lol; the liberal version of “being raptured”?

We cannot, categorically, rule out the possibility that the CIA has, possibly, once or twice, inadvertently, told the truth. Accidents can and do happen.

Even to those ‘professionals’ who happily (if SECRETLY), toy with the rest of us, in God’s name or George’s or Dick’s, but, always, in our name, ‘accidents’ can happen. After all ‘accidents’ happen around the CIA all of the time … usually to someone else.

[Since it is being done (all of it, however heinous) in the name of the people of this democracy, in your name and mine, realistically, if reasonable and rational thought and behavior (not to mention the rule of law) matters in a democracy, then acceptable appeals to secrecy should be damned few and very far between. However, the CIA is one of our very own sacred cows, and we must not discuss its behavior or notice any ‘messes’ left in the wake of its passage. We must, absolutely, believe that this cow has only our best interests at heart.]

;~(

Hadn’t thought about it in those terms, but you make me understand the rapture a tiny little bit. *g*

I’m not referring to altruism. I’m referring to strenghtening the D brand via stronger opposition to the Rs. After all, the Rs would be in rigor mortis except for their opposition tactics.

I actually didn’t rule out the CIA telling the truth in my original comment at 5. I was questioning why we should ever expect them to tell the truth. The null hypothesis ought to be that they are lying, and the burden should be on them to prove that they aren’t.

Another point on this…it appears that she was told about this “outside the process”. IOW an aide, one that would have faced a lot more dangers than her, could have been prosecuted for leaking internal classified information to her, that she revealed “second hand”.

All of this we see being played out now would have been occurring THEN…with Bush in the WH able to control the media, the DoJ (and not simply protecting the torturers and liars…but actually prosecuting “the leaker who threatened national security”). Nancy might have been protected from prosecution by speaking in the well of the Senate. But I will bet 10:1 that the “aide” would have been hunted down and faced with years in prison for leaking classified information later exposed by minority leader Pelosi.

And the Bush-Cheney cabal would simply have released excised portions of the legal justifications (minus the number and degree of waterboardings that violated the most basic SERE guidelines), the so-called “valuable information” that thwarted “imminent terrorist attacks”…blah, blah, blah.

And Pelosi would have come forward…not on the basis of solid information, but second hand info. that she could not safely point to the source unless she wanted to expose her “whistle blower”. Lots of luck with THAT!

Sorry…all of this “Pelosi should have come out earlier” stuff ignores the set up Bush-Cheney created to prevent just that sort of disclosure from occurring.

May you thoughts take up residence in the hearts and minds of all the Citizens of this nation, eCAHN.

The better, the sooner …

DW

Ah, living amongst fundies has paid off a little, finally. An explanation of end (of big) time(s) that is comprehensible

Personally, if Cheney ever goes to jail I’d like to be around to relish the long overdue application of justice. Better still if I could own a license plate stamped out by his grubby little hands.

Thanks. Good points. And I’m sure Pelosi was more aware of that than most.

Thought you’d like the null hypothesis part. But don’t think it could become a popular sound bite. Maybe we can educate Rachel to educate the great unwashed.

You couldn’t afford a Cheney-made license plate. They’ll go for millions on eBay.

Rachel hearts her some Pauls. Had Ron on last week, iirc, now has his sone Rand on.

That’s it, go ahead and burst my bubble.

The hope still lives, and the dream shall never die…

“suspect” as Graham pointed out.

Pile on congress folk. Start the investigations last year

You can probably get Cheney pellets cheap, since their evidentiary value plummeted

Bush’s CIA picked the wrong guy to try to bamboozle. Bob Graham has kept detailed, color-coded diaries that go back decades. Not only can he tell you everything that was said in those meetings, he can tell you what he had for breakfast on those days, and at what time he brushed his teeth.

Hoss, I’m lifting that in its entirety, and pasting it with attribution, as a comment, it’s that good.

Fine, fine summary . . . hope you don’t mind passing it forward . . *G* If so, I’ll pull it . . . . but it needs to be heard, methinks. . .

Citizen Larue:

Thanx commrad…keep the faith.

It might rehabilitate the Bush name if Cheney is portrayed as a corrupt, conniving rogue operator. And, not our kind dear! For example, here is Maureen Dowd taking some dictation from Poppy, as follows:

“Bush 41 cares about decorum and protocol,” said an official in Bush I. “I’m sure he doesn’t appreciate Cheney acting out. He is giving the whole party a black eye just as Jeb is out there trying to renew the party.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05…..d.html?hpw