Haaretz published a long piece by Aluf Benn today arguing that the nuclear proliferation is "the basis for understanding the diplomatic processes in today’s Middle East." I think that’s a nice way to frame regional peace primarily around the Iranian nuclear issue. But the article unintentionally raises an excellent question: What the fuck does ‘nuclear ambiguity‘ even mean?
From what I can gather, all it means is that Israel and the United State won’t officially discuss Israel’s nukes, especially when it comes to international policy. As in, the only context where it matters. Really? We can publish endless newspaper articles and talk off record until our shit stops stinking, but no, that stuff is completely irrelevant whenever anyone might want to dish arms control for real? My brain is literally stroking out right now trying to figure out why policymaking is considered the proper place to play fucking pretend. Cause that’s all it is, since something can’t be ambiguous if everyone knows all about it.
How can there even be a debate whether Israel should "declare" its nuclear weapons? Yeah, that’d be a real god damn game changer. Everyone gonna want their own now that it’s out in the open (like it was already)! I bet Ayatollah Khameini would piss his long, flowing pants once he finds out Israel now knows that Iran knows that Israel has the nukes Iran already knows about! Maybe this line of thought help explain Iran’s, as well as the entire Arab world’s, apparent comfort with a policy of "ambiguity" when it comes to Israel’s right to exist. Sure, they know Israel knows they know Israel is there, but hey they just don’t want to talk about it on record.
Which leads us to a larger discussion: how can we possibly negotiate in good faith with the Iranians as long as we continue to play dumb about Israel? Aren’t we accusing Iran of following the precedent first set by Israel, well before India, Pakistan or even North Korea, where having nuclear weapons is okay as long as you’re reaaaallly quiet about making them. Does Israel get to grandfather their nukes as acceptable just because they got to the finish line before anyone caught on? Might that be why Iran would possibly want to become a de facto nuclear weapons state in the first place, as alleged by the 2007 National Intelligence Estimate?
Just because we don’t like them doesn’t mean Iran isn’t allowed to have legitimate security concerns. Remember that mind blowing Goldberg op-ed? I wonder how that played in the Farsi press? The snarky lede practically writes itself:
The leader of a country repeatedly invokes apocalyptic religious language and threatens to attack his country’s declared bête noire. Meanwhile, his own country is subject to longstanding international concern regarding its secret nuclear program. Of course, we’re discussing Benjamin Netanyahu and Iran.
Like what I did there? Why shouldn’t Iran feel threatened by that kind of rhetoric, as Israel does by Ahmadinejad? Does Israel get the sort of pass the United States liked to believe it had during the Cold War, when Reagan could saber rattle all he wanted about the Evil Empire because the Soviets, like, know for sure we would never strike first. Because we’re America, a free democracy, and thus the good guys. After the infamous 1983 NATO training exercise Able Archer, Reagan apparently changed his mind:
"Three years had taught me something surprising about the Russians: Many people at the top of the Soviet hierarchy were genuinely afraid of America and Americans. Perhaps this shouldn’t have surprised me, but it did … During my first years in Washington, I think many of us in the administration took it for granted that the Russians, like ourselves, considered it unthinkable that the United States would launch a first strike against them. But the more experience I had with Soviet leaders and other heads of state who knew them, the more I began to realize that many Soviet officials feared us not only as adversaries but as potential aggressors who might hurl nuclear weapons at them in a first strike … Well, if that was the case, I was even more anxious to get a top Soviet leader in a room alone and try to convince him we had no designs on the Soviet Union and Russians had nothing to fear from us."
Robert Gates agreed with that assessment in his own memoir:
Information about the peculiar and remarkably skewed frame of mind of the Soviet leaders during those times that has emerged since the collapse of the Soviet Union makes me think there is a good chance—with all of the other events in 1983—that they really felt a NATO attack was at least possible and that they took a number of measures to enhance their military readiness short of mobilization. After going through the experience at the time, then through the postmortems, and now through the documents, I don’t think the Soviets were crying wolf. They may not have believed a NATO attack was imminent in November 1983, but they did seem to believe that the situation was very dangerous. And US intelligence [SNIE 11-9-84 and SNIE 11-10-84] had failed to grasp the true extent of their anxiety.
Think the Iranian leadership might also be classified as a bit paranoid? They’re surrounded by other nuclear weapons states -Pakistan, Israel, the United States, Russia and India – and only maintain tension free relations with the last two. They’ve watched two American invasions seeking regime changes right on their border. I’m sure the Iranian leadership thought jokes about turning ‘left to Damascus or right to Tehran" after the fall of Baghdad were fucking hilarious. Finally, it’s nothing but stupid to pretend they’ve forgotten how practically the entire rest of the world either openly or covertly supported Iraq in their decade long war (That is, everyone except North Korea, the US in Iran-Contra, and, improbably, Israel). Especially the global silence on repeated Iraqi use of chemical weapons against Iranian soldiers and civilians, leaving Iran only second to Japan as the country most afflicted by weapons of mass destruction. Most of those weapons were developed, by the way, with European assistance.
That’s even ignoring the obvious economic incentives Iran has for nuclear power; namely, a desire not to lose valuable potential oil and gas exports because of their rapidly growing domestic energy consumption, which is already straining their current grid. Now I know lots of people might nod their heads at that, but still say Iranian duplicity regarding its nuclear program means they’ve lost the right for domestic nuclear enrichment. Haaretz reports that the US is even considering refined petroleum sanctions, since Iran has limited refining capacity of its own. Maybe that’s the kind of threat to which the Iranians would respond. But I’ll go out on a limb and suggest that because that sort of threat (ie; an energy embargo) is even possible is precisely why Iran doesn’t trust "legally guaranteed" enriched uranium imports in return for ending its domestic program.
There is one obvious solution to this, and forgive my jargon, "diplomatic shitstorm." If the United States is really worried about Iran upsetting the established order because they might obtain nuclear weapons, I suggest a policy of "nuclear ambiguity". In return for Iran not openly discussing or brandishing nuclear weapons, the United States will not oppose an Iranian nuclear energy program. The rest of the world, Israel included, should continue on as if the status quo is maintained, and stop asking questions since the answers will only upset them more. Israel can even continue to pretend Iran knows about the nukes that Israel pretends not to have while pretending Iran has no nukes at all! Makes perfect sense, right?
Oh fuck Haaretz predicted that one two years ago.
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You ask the right question:
How can we negotiate in good faith with the Iranians when we play dumb about Israel’s nukes?
This has been a game of “wink,wink,nudge,nudge” on WashingtonDC’s part for decades.
WashingtonDC sends billions of $$ to Israel year in/year out. Much of this orbiting around military sales,transfers and resupply conduct.
Israel is not a nice neighbor as Lebanon,Gaza,West Bank and Syria well know and Israel would like Iran to find that out evidently very much.
Israeli atomic weapons? WashingtonDC has gone beyond silly pretend about that fact.
Recently American Vice President Joe Biden stated while in ME that Israel is free to do what it likes as WashingtonDC cannot “tell” Israel what to do?
Really Joe?
All those billions of American $$ and military items WashingtonDC sends to Israel every year now for decades WashingtonDC cannot control or govern?
Meanwhile Iran is so very wicked. Wicked. Iran is very very wicked.
Israel? Beats up Lebanon,West Bank and Gaza and kills lots of innocents while doing so.
WashingtonDC does what about that fact and truth? Sends more $$ and military inventory and so far has left impression well in place Israel can do more beat-ups on Lebanon and Gaza,kill more innocents and suffer no blowback or pushback from WashingtonDC.
Meanwhile WashingtonDC invades and mucks up Iraq really good,is doing same to Afghanistan now and clearly is letting Iran know it may get it from either Washington or TelAviv any day because Iran is so very wicked and poor Israel is so passive and innocent.
The BSometer cannot keep up.
Poor Israel. Wicked Iran.
In good faith? surely you jest.
The United States is not really worried about that, they are worried about a country with oil whose government not say ‘yes Boss!’ properly.
the entire ‘weapons of mass destruction’ controversy is a charade, just as it was in the runup to the attack on Iraq.
Not very much sense in this post, nor any logic in arguing that because some nuclear weapons exist, we’ve no interest in seeing that more nuclear weapons don’t come into existence in the hands of people opposed to our interests and opposed to modernity.
Israel is masking its imperialistic undertakings by provoking regional unrest. If there was peace could they proceed with this kind of crap
http://english.aljazeera.net/n…..46153.html
Yep I agree, was there ever good faith when it come to the US and dealing with other nations?
jo6pac
The standard, or the “bar” always has various levels so that your minimal friends can look up and over the top, but not climb it. Our world is based on who has the world killers. This alone gives them importance where in so many other aspects they have none. Having Israel a member of this group is proof that logic and reason do not prevail. Israel has treated their own citizens to never ending war. They didn’t have to start them all, no. They figured out that having their big friend break all these little countries for them was just fine. They enjoy the game today. The people we distrust are those that distrust the people we trust.
Sanity does not exist if Bibi is in charge in Israel. Same goes for Iran. Having a religious leader is tantamount to international stupidity. What differences does it make if the leader of the nation is a funny cloth wearing martinet with stupid sayings, or an empty suit that uses sayings more familiar to the western reader. They are still highly primitive subsets of humanity bent on the destruction of each other after the intervening 60 years. One has the good fortune to have others work for it, the other must find the will within their own sphere, or find others willing. Sort of a parasitic arrangement, no?
Israel decided in 1967, against Ben Gurion’s advice, to act without the approval of the U.S., when it thought it was necessary. They’ve proven time and again that they have an “ambiguous” red line that will cause them to act as they determine in order to protect their continued existence. There is no mutually assured destruction at this point, only assured destruction for one side if the other feels gravely threatened. Whether anybody in the U.S. approves or not, those are the facts. Given that situation, I saw Biden’s statement to be a useful hint at what might be the only leverage we have with Iran; that we might be able to pursuade Israel to exercise some restraint if they feel threatened.
I cannot express to you how heartened I am to see this thread.
It has been said that the racial issues in the US is the bete noir.(No pun intended).
And being Southern, I can attest it IS an ongoing issue,a la Gates-gate being a very recent and very public example.
However, imho, an equally insidious game is being played. Namely,anyone questioning ANYTHING regarding Israel is immediately labeled Anti-Semite.
I feel that is why ANY dialogs heave been effectively cut off to the public in general. Witness the atrocities that are being perpetrated upon the Arab Jews-the Palestinians.
The MSM ,and the blogs, seem to have little to say about these intentional,ongoing horrors.
WHEN will the US stop aiding and abetting Isreal with billions of dollars and weaponry?
WHAT is the defense for this indefensible,enabling behavior?
Isbn’t this a case of do as I say ,not as I do when it comes to the US and Israel?
Iran is not a civilized nation. Israel is the only pearl in the region. Anyone too dumb to see the difference between Iran and Israel has earned and truly deserves the title of ‘progressive’.
I think it is anti-Semitic to not support Israel. I recently re-watched Exodus and Cast a Giant Shadow about the creation of the State of Israel. They are an embattled people. Just four million people surrounded by 50 million Arabs. The Palestinians were historically a rootless bunch of Bedouins, a Turkish satrapy. Israel was voted that land by the United Nations, the Russians and the Americans in a rare position of agreement. If they have “quiet” nuclear weapons, they most assuredly are entitled to them because WE know they will only use them in the event of an existential threat. It is odd that on he Right, Pat Buchanan of all people agree with you. And HE is pro-South. But he also is an anti-Semitic bigot. The Israels should take out Iran’s nukes and the United States should support them with air support and refueling.
Well said. Clear, cogent, lucid and true.
Every nation has the right to defense, and the only defense against strategic weapons is a strategic deterrent.
The fact that we can pretend 1.That Israel doesn’t have an offensive strategic capability and 2.We get to choose which nations are “entitled” to their own national defense just demonstrates how dishonest, unreasonable and ultimately futile our policies are.
Thanks for telling the truth – that’s just not something you see everyday…
mikey
I felt the following statement detracted from a post which otherwise attempted to make a valid point.
REALLY? You literally had a stroke? In that case you should have called 911 instead of finishing your essay. I suspect “literally” and “ironic” (and “fucking”) are the most frequently misused words in the English language. In addition, as someone who has personally witnessed a family member having and later dying of a stroke, I find that sort of needless embellishment rather offensive.
It’s hard to extend credibility to someone whose understanding of a complex geopolitical problem seems to be based on a couple of old Hollywood movies with unabashedly pro Zionist themes, especially when you don’t seem aware of the fact the UN actually partitioned Palestine between its Jewish and Palestinian inhabitants (kind of a crucial point, no?) and you repeat tired racial slurs like the “The Palestinians were historically a rootless bunch of Bedouins, a Turkish satrapy”. The Palestinians were not rootless, and they were no more or less a part of a Turkish satrapy than the Jews who lived alongside them.
Do you think Israel will let Iran reach a point where the standoff involves mutually assured destruction? If Israel decided to act, how would it be in the national interest of any other country to do more than shake their heads and scold Israel? Iran should understand that this could become an existential issue for them and they don’t know at what point that would happen.
Your post is satire,correct?
Some of the most insightful and intelligent,not to mentioned,gifted writing on the net can be found at Chris Floyd’s Empire Burlesque website.
Spokrovat is a fan,too, of the site.Hey,Spork!
Truly informative.
Chris Floyd – Empire Burlesque – High Crimes and Low Comedy in the …Jul 27, 2009 … Archives. Click here for the Original Empire Burlesque … Chris Floyd – Empire Burlesque – High Crimes and Low Comedy in the Bush Imperium …
http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/…..tpage.html – Cached – Similar
Are you suggesting that it is in any country’s interest to allow Israel to set a precedent of threatening a non nuclear nation with nuclear annihilation in order to prevent proliferation? It seems to me the obvious result of allowing this to happen would be for all countries -including all the First World ones who have heretofore abstained from doing so in an effort to uphold the increasingly untenable non proliferation regime- to acquire nuclear weapons as quickly as possible in order to secure themselves against such extortion. Then what is Israel, the US, and other nuclear powers going to do, try to destroy the rest of the world before any of them develop the means to retaliate?
Allowing Israel or any other nuclear power to threaten a non nuclear power with a nuclear holocaust is the quickest way to ensure everyone gets nukes and the balance of terror is the only thing between us and the apocalypse.
lexington 50:
I’m not suggesting anything. I’m stating the fact that we know from experience that Israel will act when it feels it’s existence is threatened. We believe they have a stockpile of nuclear weapons. The development of a nuclear arsenal by a nation which Israel considers to be inimical may be interpreted by them as an existential threat. It is also possible, or probable, that surgical air strikes could not remove the perceived threat. In this situation, the ultimate safety of the Iranian people depends on Israel not perceiving an existential threat.
Since the U.S. does not favor the continued proliferation of nuclear weapons, and that spread is obviously destabilizing to the middle east and the world, I fully understand the U.S. and European effort to dissuade Iran from such development. Given our history with Iran, the only leverage which might effect the Iranians is convincing them of the truth; i.e., that we don’t exercise absolute control over Israel but, more than anyone else, MAY be able to persuade them that they are not threatened.
No, I am an unabashedly proud stiff-necked Jew. I am shocked that Pat Buchanan and Rahm Emanuel are on the same side in this issue. All Americans should be supporting Israel as the only Democratic country in the Middle East. The fact is that Palestine was a Turkish satrapy. As far as the original UN resolution, on the same day it was passed, all surrounding countries attacked Israel and Israel captured some additional territories. In 1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan stupidly attacked again, and this time the Israelis captured the majority (not all, but a good piece) of historic Israel. As a result of peace treaties, the Trans-Jordan (i.e., the West Bank and the Sinai were ceded back. The rest of the land is captured by the laws of war and only need to be returned as a result of a peace treaties by the defeated powers. I am convinced that the Palestinians should go to countries that will have them. The land is too small for two states. I’m sorry that Presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama seem to think you can have terrorist states in such a narrow piece of land. Try to carve up a territory less than the size of Maryland and DC with a savage bunch of Arabs and we wouldn’t tolerate it. But Iran is another threat entirely. With nukes it becomes an existential threat. We know this. If they get nukes, they are working on propulsion systems (with the aid of North Korea) that could reach not only Israel, but the Gulf States, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, none of whom are too thrilled at a nuclear armed Iran. So I come to the conclusion that they must be taken out at any cost. Since Obama will not, it is up to Israel to do so. If Obama were smart, he’d just look the other way and allow the CIA to orchestrate covert refueling. I’m afraid he won’t be and it will be somewhat messier, but it will happen because it has to.
A better idea:
> United States demands Israel surrender all atomic weapons it now controls
> Israel restores borders to pre 1967 status
> West Bank and Gaza become United States Protectorates
> Arab Palestinians are granted American citizenship so become Americans
> Jerusalem is declared an International City governed by Israel/Palestine
> Arab Palestine is accorded full rights of American trade and education
> Israel must allow all Palestinian refugees to claim compensation for lost lands and homes but Palestinians then agree to become Americans and not return to Israel and renounce any claims of rights to do so.
> Israel must deal with Americans if it does not behave and Palestine is subject to American conducted domestic and foreign affairs control and full American justice and judicial oversight.
Results: No Israeli attack on Iran or anyone else again. Palestine is able to gain speedy entry into 21st century and achieve full dignity for all Arab Palestinians as Americans. Israel loses all premise for doing what it has been doing since 1950 and Arab Palestine is accorded full dignity and prosperity of American status. All Palestinian military affairs run out of WashingtonDC. Attack Palestine you are attacking USA. Peace on American terms and conditions.
Seems like better way to move forward for Israel,Palestine and USA.
What objections could Israel then present to being peaceful and doing no more beat ups and land grabs? Arab Palestine just better most ways around.
You forgot the part about everyone getting ponies. There must be ponies, and plenty of them, somewhere in your proposal.
Because Iran is working toward having nuclear weapons and also working on missiles capable of carrying them, you think that “they must be taken out at all costs”.
If someone doesn’t like you and you find out that they’re attempting to buy bullets and also attempting to buy a gun, would you take them out at all costs?
You also are dropping pony by-products.
#21
Extremely intersting and intelligent suggestions.
May I make another?
Any possibility designating the Palestinians as American Indians?Forthwith a very intriguing tidbit.A Native American feather flies with the Star of David – ISRAEL21cMar 2, 2009 … At first glance, there seems to be little in common between Israel and the 862 member Native American Coushatta Tribe, from Louisiana. …
http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enDispWho… – Cached – Similar—————
Incidentally, that is the SAME tribe that Abramoff ripped off for millions.
Follow the money:
War and Natural Gas: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza’s Offshore Gas …Discovered in 2000, there are extensive gas reserves off the Gaza coastline. … crucial negotiations pertaining to the purchase of Gaza’s natural gas: …
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.ph…..;aid=11680 – Cached – Similar
Israel needs to defend itself and a better border would be the post-1967 borders minus the Sinai and Trans-Jordan. As far as the Gaza Strip, I don’t have any problem of it becoming an American protectorate as long as we build several Walmarts and disarm its populations of missiles and other deadly weapons. But nuclear arms give it the freedom from attack of many enemies. Iran, on the other hand, is an instrument of State Terror who even the opposition candidate for President woulld like to rectify. It cannot be allowed nuclear weapons at all cost. I might support something like your proposal if WE take out their nukes. Interesting your moniker is the name of the Israeli defense missile, the Arrow. and macquerman @ 23, of course I would use my gun if I had reason to think someone was going to attack my house and my family. If I knew my neighbor were going to attack my wife in the middle of the night, I’d call the police and have him watched. The only police Israel can call is the US and no one in the Obama White House is answering the phone. So they need to act pre-emptively. Not to mention that Jerusalem is the non-negotiable irrevocable Capital of the State of Israel. It has been for 3,000 years and so it shall remain, subject to Israel’s allowance of other religions to celebrate their holy places. But Israelis have the right to build and live ANYWHERE in their capital city.
In either case, neither Israel or you have any real idea that an attack would be forthcoming should the other party get a weapon and also get the means of delivering it.
Attacking pre-emptively at all costs is the act of an idiot criminal.
Ummmm. Without falling into the whole “Israel is a occupying state Israel was given by G-D discussion, wouldnt it be rational to start building pressure on Israel to open up for nuclear inspections of the Dimona plant, and sign the international protocols? Because currently, Iran is the one abiding with international law and Israel is the one breaking it. Arguing in good faith on behalf of a criminal stinks like the crap it is.
Its good to see this discussion out in the open, Spencer. Does this mean you have decided never to work in the MSM?
Beside not understanding international law and the NPT, you also fail to note that Spencer is not present for the post or the discussion.
ponies,camels or Chevrolet Malibus–
Deeper point of my response to DLoerke(delurk?) was to suggest a way out of current thin skinned,short fused and tit for tat Israeli/Palestinian impasse–since Israel is already considered by many Americans to be 51st State just complete the = and make Arab Palestine 52nd State and give Arab Palestinians American protection and citizenship so Israel understands who they are picking a fight with if/when Israeli hunger for Palestinian or Lebanese land and water rights rides roughshod over being nice/fair and staying inside established borders in the neighborhood.
Clearly Americans will not leave ME alone because American oil is there and since Israel is only atomic weapons holder so far in ME which WashingtonDC has fingerprints all over as is the case then Israel gives up the atomic weapons to Americans as we already have several thousand –ipso facto no other country in ME needs them to counter Israel.
Current SoS Clinton is suggesting an American nuclear shield over American oil in ME as it is.
Undoubtedly Israelis and Palestinians would/could haggle over this for some time (years? decades? why yes of course!!) but at least since we Americans get to bankroll Israel as it is anyway and are in ME because of our meddling tendencies anyway we may as well dive into the deep end of the ME pool.
Clearly as seen in Iraq over past 6 years we act like ME is just east of Mexico as it is anyway.
I’ve been watching various videos about Iran. Their most common chant during all gatherings is “death to America, death to Israel.” It occurred to me that I’ve never seen any comparable chants in the U.S. or Israel. I think that alone should explain why we need to worry about Iran.
Come to the Bronx some night this week and listen to the chants about Boston.
I’d accept your formulation if all the Palestinians could be made Mexican citizens. We’ll take the Israelis. Seriously, sharonsj@31 is correct. Iran is the danger here, both to Israeli immediately and to the United States interests in the longer term.
If Iran had stepped into American politics of early 1950’s and had played puppetmaster to a murky scheme of ‘I Dislike Ike’ where Ike got the boot surely Americans would be all Hallmark Card like towards Iran today–Yes? No?
Modern Israel is a throwback to 18th or 19th century or even earlier European colonialism. It is quite common for several hundred (thousand?) years to be overlooked by Israeli zealots to make this all seem right as rain then too. As I understand from someone who’s family still owns land as Arab Palestinians near Jerusalem before the European Jews began to stir up troubles everyone got along well enough. Clearly the terror European Jews unleashed on Palestine was little or not different at all from what Israel likes to accuse so recklessly of others doing.
One can submit in comparison that if a big chunk of Florida had been given to the bunch that runs Israel these days back in late 1940’s lots of ex-Floridians and friends/sympathizers would not be chanting nice things either if they were the ones kicked off land and out of homes. The Floridian Cubans would have fit right in with this ex-Floridian refugee group likely enough.
Several years earlier, Eisenhower had been involved in large-scale manipulations that caused the German government to “get the boot”. When the German government starts sponsoring chants of death to American at political rallies, you’ll be understanding? Yes?
Whatever understanding you may have or claim to have from from whatever people claiming to have once owned land is a poor one if your thoughts lead you to believe that all the trouble in Israel is attributable to European “outside agitator” Jews.
Bravo!
shoothatarrow hits a bullseye!
50 Palestinians evicted from their Jerusalem homes – 3 hours ago
The international community has pressured Israel to refrain from evicting Palestinians and building new homes for Jews in east Jerusalem, saying such moves …The Associated Press – 633 related articles »
50 Palestinians evicted from their Jerusalem homes – Yahoo! NewsIsraeli police evicted two Palestinian families in east Jerusalem on Sunday, then allowed Jewish settlers to move into their homes, drawing criticism from …
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/…/ap…/ml_israel_palestinians – 3 hours ago – Similar—————————————————————-
This is an excellent article with info about the history of struggle between Israeli and Palestinians.
Running for a Hitler/German Nazi analogy for what Americans did to Iran in 1953 is quite European of you.
Yes–this old Arab Palestinian family still own land in and around Jerusalem–not that the TelAviv gangsters make that an easy thing to do.
And for my now Arab American friend it was just that–everyone got along.
And there was no rioting in Jerusalem in 1920?
Jerusalem has a long history of give and takes or just takes to be sure.
A tough city for realtors to be sure.
What Romans alone did to Jerusalem is a big chunk of history.
Islam likely was more tolerant across the long history of Jerusalem than European Christian Crusaders however Islam having built a dome over a rock where the Jewish Temple also once stood sure makes for a complicated deed and title trail.
Israeli Zionists and zealots currently are the ones taking land,chasing people out of homes and running a permits/bulldozing/wall building racket intended to make lots of Arab Palestinians into refugees or worse still– dead–now who was doing this very same thing in 1930’s and early 40’s Europe? That mad Austrian guy and his gang of Heilers? The same.
Less selective history reads of history here in early 21st century for Jerusalem,West Bank and Gaza seems in order.
Americans had the Palmer Raids from 1919 through 1921. Does not mean my grandparents of German ancestry had trouble then like they had seen and felt in early stages of WW1 American pro British ultra hostility towards German Americans.
Just lucky? Maybe. History is like that.
Take one hammer blow. Miss two others.
All this blather about Palmer raids and your grandparents doesn’t change that what those Palestinians told you and what you here repeated is just flat wrong.
Only a goddamned ignorant sob or liar can think that either the Jews or the Arabs carry sole blame for the trouble over there.
Controversial Bestseller Shakes the Foundation of the Israeli State
By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted January 28, 2009.
What if the entire tale of the Jewish Diaspora is historically wrong? What if the Palestinian Arabs who have lived for decades under the heel of the modern Israeli state are in fact descended from the very same “children of Israel” described in the Old Testament?
And what if most modern Israelis aren’t descended from the ancient Israelites at all, but are actually a mix of Europeans, North Africans and others who didn’t “return” to the scrap of land we now call Israel and establish a new state following the attempt to exterminate them during World War II, but came in and forcefully displaced people whose ancestors had lived there for millennia?
That’s the explosive thesis of When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?, a book by Tel Aviv University scholar Shlomo Zand (or Sand) that sent shockwaves across Israeli society when it was published last year. After 19 weeks on the Israeli best-seller list, the book is being translated into a dozen languages and will be published in the United States this year by Verso.————————————-
Home | AlterNetJul 28, 2009 … Syndication service and online community of the alternative press, featuring news stories from alternative newsweeklies, magazines and web …
http://www.alternet.org/ – Cached – Similar
Modern Israel is simply payback to Jews who assisted Lord Balfour in World War I and a reflection of the fact that Jews had suffered during the Holocaust at the hands of the Axis Power and the promises that were made to the Jews and finally kept. The United States–in opposition to its own State Department–recognized the benefit of a Democratic ally in the Middle East. As far as shootthatarrow@38, the United States in 1953 simply dislodged a pro-communist regime and reinstalled the rightful ruler, the Shah of Iran. And Gitcheegumee@37–Jerusalem is the one and undivided capital of Israel. The Jewish families are entitled by birth and by conquest to that city.
The Palestinians may–(but probably not)–be descendants from the Canaanites who populated the land coterminously to the Hykksos expulsion from Egypt under Ramses II. While the Mosaic story does have some element of fiction to it, the underlying facts–that the J author of the Old Testament was writing during a time of an undivided Israel who had a strong oral tradition of a time when Jews and Canaanites both had some common beliefs in Baal as well as El. At any rate, short of a DNA test which would not prove anything, the modern state is a product both of the Bible and 20th century promises made to the Jewish people of today.
Was a nice Sunday afternoon FDL thread while it lasted. Enjoy visiting/following FDL. This was an interesting comments thread.
Everyone get to say what they wanted? Think so. Good.
Thanks FDL for hosting and thanks to other FDL guests who left comments on this thread. I hope my comments were worthy of your reading time. Don’t usually engage this much on any one FDL thread. Not wondering why either.
FDL Comments Archives next stop.
Thanks for your feedback.
I’ve been thinking aboutGalilee,Bethlehem and Judea.
All locations associated with the birth and life of Jesus Christ.
Wouldn’t that have made Jesus Christ a Palestinian?
And logically,would not blood descendants of his be living and possibly dying in Palestine today?
@45
This may be of especial interest to you:
Jewish Genetics – DNA, genes, Jews, AshkenaziThis section is the most comprehensive summary of Jewish genetic data. In recent years, advances in genetic technology and the broadening in scope of …
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html – Cached – Similar
Jewish Genetics, Part 2: Cohens and Levites (kohen, cohen, levite DNA)In a similar way, there is no Jewish haplotype and genetics cannot ‘prove’ whether someone is a Jew; that is a matter for religious authorities. …
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abst…..evite.html – Cached – Similar
Show more results from http://www.khazaria.com
I do not doubt Jesus was a Palestinian Jew. And Jesus believed in an independent Israel a la the Maccabean independence which was of recent historical memory (since it was the Jewish rulers who threw in with the Romans to dislodge the Greeks). As someone interested in a free and independent Israel, whether or not their descendents are dying, the Jewish State with its free and undivided capital in Jerusalem is what is independent. Every Jew prays, “Next Year in Jerusalem”. Unlike for the Muslims (for whom Mecca is the center of the religion), the heart of Jew is Jerusalem. It’s why Jews tend to be great archaeologists.
Gitcheegumee@48. Thanks for extremely interesting studies. Of course since the return from the Diaspora there’s no question that there would be strains largely Eastern European and from the major trade routes of the time. And there was some intermarriage (probably more than the Biblican writers admit) of intermmariage between the Israelite and Canaanite population. Heck, the Story of Ruth is acknowledged fiction and the Moabites really are Jordanians, but so was Herod for that matter. It’s interesting, but no more illuminating than the genetic population of America. We’re a melting pot. in the ancient world, one reason for the constant wars was that the so-called Coast Road built by Rome in Biblican times paralleled the old trade routes.
@50
Al Lo Davar
Congratulations delurker, it sounds like you’ve completed your hasbara history books, and inculcated hatred of the “other” just as children of KKK parents have. Participating on this site allows us to the opportunity stop being someone’s useful idiot.
Reducing the argument to “if someone doesn’t support Israel, it’s anti-semitic” is just to ridiculous even deal with. Time to grow up.
What we all have in common is that our governments lie to us. The blogs and bloggers on this site are especially good at researching and challenging “politically correct” half-truths, lies, propaganda, and platitudes.
Reducing the struggle to Israel vs. (fill in here), Conservative vs. Liberal etc, embracing jingoism, racist stereotypes, and adopting a narrative that you haven’t critically examined doesn’t advance the cause for truth, humanity, or peace.
According to Rabin and Dayan,
Syria did not attack Israel when Israel occupied the Golan. At the urging of settlers that wanted the land, Israel provoked them continuously until they retaliated. This is Israel’s Modus Operandi.If the provocations do not produce results then false flag operators are sent in.
http://www.cactus48.com/1967war.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05…..gewanted=1
http://intelligencenews.wordpr…..alysis009/
Modern day anti-Semitism is a wholly different disease. One can accept the DNA variance of the Jewish inhabitants of Greater Israel without challenging their right to be there and defeat their enemies. I still believe that if you change the United States’ historical support for its alliance with Israel there are sinister motives. (e.g., Pat Buchanan, Rahm Ehmanuel, etc.) Moshe Dayan was a great general but Bibi Netanyahu is a better stragic thinker. The rest is an example of the same Buchanan spirit…there are self hating Jews, especially on the NY Times. And Ben-Gurion is right. Israel should be restored to the borders of the Davidic Kingdom.
Paul Craig Roberts: Pirates of the Mediterranean
Jul 1, 2009 … Pirates of the Mediterranean. By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS. On June 30, the government of Israel committed an act of piracy when the Israeli Navy …
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts07012009.html – Cached – Similar
This is an excellent piece that provides some intelligent food for thought.
only if a half of a peanut butter and horseshit sandwich is to your taste, Git.