One consequence of moving to a new apartment before your internet is installed: you miss big Washington Post pieces about torture that blow up your iPhone with holy-shit-I-can’t-believe-they-printed-this emails. So I’ve read it now and ask, as Martin Lawrence once used as a catchphrase: What the problem is?
I’m going to borrow a point from Glenn and flip it. As he notes, the thesis of the piece — torture worked, basically — is really undermined by its caveats. For instance, this is the most problematic paragraph, and it’s the lede:
The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general’s report and other documents released this week indicate.
I mean, the documents — well, you can read them yourself. As I started writing on Monday, they simply do not provide "clear" evidence that torture worked, except in the busy minds of its advocates. Even the torture advocates quoted in the piece can’t bring themselves to go that far. What turned Khalid Shaikh Mohammed into a motormouth? Why, "of course it began with" waterboarding, a former senior intelligence official tells the paper. Not even an unequivocal defense from this guy?
And then as I read further, I see that the hinge points of the story just kick the thesis out from under it. Grafs 9 and 10 quote KSM’s boast to the International Committee of the Red Cross that he just made stuff up to make the torment stop and to throw the CIA on wild goose chases. To take a digression, this is a point that I don’t feel either the piece or anyone who uses a term like "break" in interrogations has ever grappled with. Reading KSM’s ICRC statement, it’s fairly clear that he views the whole years-long interrogations process a stamina-filled contest of wills. To think in terms of "well, we took Technique X and that changed the whole game" puts the interrogators at a disadvantage as a result. It’s declaring victory on the deck of the Abraham Lincoln.
Anyway, then we come to the big in-his-own-words quote from John Helgerson, the ex-inspector general, and that’s where the caveating really goes nuts:
"Certain of the techniques seemed to have little effect, whereas waterboarding and sleep deprivation were the two most powerful techniques and elicited a lot of information," he said in an interview. "But we didn’t have the time or resources to do a careful, systematic analysis of the use of particular techniques with particular individuals and independently confirm the quality of the information that came out."
So: we don’t know — to be as neutral and true-to-the-report as I can — if the torture worked. We do know it reaped a quantity of information. We don’t know if it reaped quality information. This is a very weak thing to hang a defense of torture on. We’ve known it for years.
The rest of the piece is about the true-lies KSM gave to his interrogators for years afterwards, which can be analogized to a resistance technique. If that ever comes out in court — don’t hold your breath — that would be a great object for study. How did KSM calibrate his resistance to interrogation? Don’t tell the interrogators too much to jeopardize al-Qaeda, but tell them too much nonsense and it means you get jammed up again... I don’t know, I’m just speculating.
Anyway, I’ve tried to talk myself into viewing the piece as OK owing to all the caveats in it, but at a certain point when you’ve attracted all those caveats, you really owe it to your readers to revise your framework. I suppose the best that can be said for the piece is that if this is the best that torture proponents have, then that’s pretty great from the perspective of torture opponents. (I can’t criticize the reliance on anonymous sources, since I use them all the time.) And that’s how the media is going to play it, right? Marc?
The burden of argument rests on us — we need to persuade people that the act of torture in a democratic society is always wrong, that the ticking time bomb scenario is rarely — if ever — the situation interrogators face, and that even if torture works in a few cases, it is not worth the moral (and tangible) costs to our country. If there’s evidence that torture worked in certain cases — or if it wasn’t counter-productive — even if the evidence isn’t complete or is fragmentary, it’s not going to advance the anti-torture cause to ignore it.
Sigh. Here I thought the burden was on the ones who wanted to skirt the law and the traditional conceptions of civilized behavior, but what do I know. As for ignoring the evidence: it’s right in front of us! You don’t have to rely on anyone’s word for what the evidence is. Just read the reports and see the straightforward inability of the torture proponents to present even the case that torture worked. But if the burden of proof is on the opponents of torture — well, now you see how Cheney can outwit the media. Not all of us, though.



34 Comments
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About ATTACKERMAN
RSS/XML Feed
all this focus on one guy, KSM, who might actually be guilty of something.
They did all the same cruelties to hundreds of people who were completely innocent, releasing some, killing others.
Here is a must read article about the chronology of the capture and torture of Abu Zubaydah. It basically blows the Cheney talking points out of the water.
http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2737
Gah. The end justified the means is just a mealy-mouthed excuse that is not ever acceptable if laws are really laws rather than behavioral guidelines. Fucking Asshats. To even spew this lame shit and continue to pretend that Bush/Cheney were trying to protect the US using torture is completely asinine. They used torture for propaganda purposes like everyone else down through history. The prop. required was WMD evidence, or info that could be twisted as same. I’m sorry I swear so much on Mondays.
This is the most shameful chapter in the history of this country, and the perpetrators are acting like guilty children who aren’t big enough to admit they did something unforgivable. Getting the other kids in the WH to help cover up for them is just pitiful. They all should be prosecuted. Without that, we cannot call this a nation under law.
Yea, nuking japan was just a drop in the bucket compared to waterboarding a couple terrorists….
I am coming in late on this line of posts, but…
Aren’t we (non-torturers) losing control of the issues by allowing a debate on the effectiveness? Should we be having a discussion about how effective eavesdropping on citizens is before we go all “crazy” trying to stop the wiretapping program? Should we have a debate about whether shooting criminal suspects at the crime scene is an effective tool for closing criminal investigations?
This seems like a clear case of jury nullification to me. Once Dick realized that a review of the law would result in findings of violations, he is diverting the media by trying to say, well even if it were illegal, should it have been?
Once we allow this debate to stray into, “did it work” category, we may lose sight of the “was it illegal?” which remains unanswered. Now if Dick concedes that it was illegal, then I might be all to happy to discuss whether it was effective and if I win, He goes to Jail.
Bingo, this is a classic misdirection play by people who may end up on the sharp end of an indictment. Laws are fucking laws and breaking them is illegal. Period. You cannot retroactively decide it was okay to ignore them.
Yep. Cheney is still operating in 2001-style propaganda. Nevermind that torture is illegal and counterproductive…If Cheney just says torture works a few hundred times, it will be true.
It’s all just a scam to muddy the waters, change the subject, obfuscate the ultimate simplicity of the questions.
1. If it’s ok to use torture because torture works, they need to come out and say in front of god and everybody that it’s ok for other nations to use the same type of “interrogation techniques” on captured Americans. The justification is that it works, the conclusion is that it works, so the if it works and it’s ok BECAUSE it works then it’s ok for everyone for the same reason.
2. The law is what the law SAYS it is. That’s the way it works. This is the most appalling thing about this entire issue. They don’t let you plead “guilty with an explanation” to a felony. Laws were clearly broken, and the lawbreakers have to be investigated and prosecuted. You just can’t get around what the law says, whether with findings, memos or directives. If you want to go out on the floor of the Senate and debate changing the laws, abrogating the treaties and codifying a new set of rules, fine, you can do that. But the laws that were in place at the time have to be enforced or the whole architecture of American democracy is no more legitimate than Afghanistan’s or Iran’s.
mikey
I swear to Christ I’m going to Google Earth this week and zoom down on what looks like a nice, quiet, Democratic neighborhood in D.C. on a very long, well-populated street. Then I’m going to MSN white page listings to do a reverse search for everyone on that street. Next I’ll begin dialing what will probably be several hundred telephone numbers asking each of the persons answering the phone if they subscribe to the Washington Post. If the respondents answer affirmatively, I’ll next plead with them to cancel their subscriptions pronto.
Wow, I applaud your abundance of free time.
I can’t recall now which of Zubayda and KSM was waterboarded 80 plus times, and the other over 180 times.
In either case, if you’re going to get ‘real’ intelligence, you’re going to get in the first, or maybe, the second attempt. Every other waterboarding was gratuitous punishment, ie torture.
We don’t need a ‘truth commission.’ We need a special prosecutor. Has anyone noticed that neither Bush or Cheney has done much European travel of late?
You know this is truly something to be considered. One thing that is becoming clear is progressives are utilizing v. effectively the power of their $. Ask Glenn Beck & Whole Foods, as well as hundreds of candidates raising funds from the internet. Boycotts are v. effective. Who are the major advertisers of the Post? Are those advertisers torture supporters? I’m in Chicago, no one reads that rag here.
Just how did this Murder by torture provide valuable information if the torturee dies?
Anyone out there have a business making Bumper Stickers? Design one that reads, “Stop Fred Hiatt” and plaster them on Post vending boxes throughout the District.
An act of war is done in defense of the country, which is not criminal. Also, we have not tortured convicted terrorists, but the accused. Nuclear war is terrible, but not against the Geneva conventions that we agreed to.
I agree they are trying to change the frame of the discussion. A few days ago I wrote that torture was morally and ethically repugnant but if we said, yeah but it works then why not permit incest? The torture apologists are brutal but not bright. They don’t realize, or don’t care, that the same argument they are using can be used to justify practices even they would reject. Cheney et al knew or should have known torture did not work. And this is the argument I make that they were never primarily interested, despite their protestations to the contrary, in extracting information from terrorist suspects. They wanted to break those they saw as responsible for their failure, their panic, and humiliation. It wasn’t just KSM who saw this as a contest of wills. It was Cheney and Addington and the rest of them. They sacrificed the very thing they said they wanted “actionable intelligence” just to get even with these guys. But it wasn’t just intelligence that was lost. It was our values, the moral high ground, and our reputation that were lost as well. The truth about Bush and Cheney is that they were total fuckups in allowing 9/11 to happen in the first place and they were total fuckups in how they reacted to it.
slavery was “effective” too morons
Truly I like this idea. Progressives are finding ways to counterpunch the Republicans. Might I suggest heavy-duty duct tape with permanent market for those vending machines? Y’all have your Tom Ridge-inspired unused rolls of duct tape, right? Wrap ‘em up!
Right, they needed CYA info to help explain away their own failings, in particular Cheney with all his experience. I’m convinced they also wanted propaganda to justify expansion of the war in Iraq.
Haha, burning thousands and thousands of innocent people alive is just an “act of war”, but torturing a few terrorists (accused, or convicted) is somehow the most horrible act in the history of this country? Give me a break.
You could claim that the torture was done in defense of the country as well…. You need a much stronger argument than that.
Also, the geneva conventions only apply to victims at war, so you claiming that torture was not an act of war just refutes your own argument..
I’m saving mine to eat when the apocalypse comes. The sticky side is full of vitamins and minerals, right?
Yes, and lovely served with a side of plastic sheeting.
lol
I guess it is kinda, sorta OK to torture KSM if you kinda, sorta completely disregard the fact that ALL of the ‘high value’ information that he gave to the CheneyIA he gave to AlJazeera 2 years before he was captured. Write them and ask if you don’t believe it. The man was proud of what he did and wanted the whole damn world to know ALL about it. Torture was just the only way that the CheneyIA could punish KSM and try to pretend it was legal. In doing so, they tainted a trial that will probably now never be able to be held because the evidence is all fruit of the poisonous tree.
Isn’t this the whole point of the poisoned fruit thing… The whole stew becomes poison? How do you know and what do you know matters. At a certain point do you expire chasing your tail? With foundations of shit you build your city when it flows down the sewer are you surprised? All of this back and forth to reprove the Enlightenment is fascinating but these are real lives you’re talking about here not some characters on TV. Cut to the chase college boy. I swear we are endlessly reliving history here.
It’s possible to get pretty deep into the woods on the particulars of the torture question and forget that we’re dealing with an administration that took this country to war on false premises. Once you’ve done that, your credibility on everything pretty much evaporates. Nothing that any of the Bushniks says about torture should be taken seriously.
When does cute intellectual games become criminal and can we trust ourselves to be our own cop? Will we all cheat when we think no one is around? Question is why do we seem so intent on zapping ourselves on the third rail once again. How much of this brutality is human nature and can we save ourselves?
Spenser
Your title is just so precious, kind of like Valerie’s redactions. Cool that technology helps us make such a clever point. PS I know I spelled a word incorrectly here.
Context, Spenser. I saw you on tv a while ago on Rachel. Not non-glare glasses, On Camera, Shouting out your girlfriend. Spenser. You have a wonderful point to make. Kindly consider not letting the superfluous get in the way. No. Really. Just trying to help.
I don’t know if incest is such a great example…it is repugnant enough, sure, but effective? Remember Deliverance? And all that crazy inbred royalty?
Ahh, yes, can’t you hear the screams now if a judge throws out all of the evidence and he must be freed? I can guarantee you the entire media will focus on the outrage of him going free instead of the outrage on WHY he would be freed (which by the way is never gonna happen).
But it’s fun to think about, because you can hear them arguing now about the need for a whole new Constitution because one that would let such a discpicable person free on a “technicality” is just no good at all.
Gee, maybe this IS what they want after all???
Why are we even talking about whether” torture works.” Of course it works — to get a person being tortured to say anything to stop the torture. To get actionable information that is reliable? Well, no, it doesn’t.
But the real issue here is that torture is immoral, unethical, and illegal under US law and international law. Therefore, it doesn’t matter whether torture works. The US cannot do it without changing its constitution and laws, and withdrawing from international treaties and the international community and becoming a rogue state.
Talking about this is just to distract and confuse. Just say NO.
That’s exactly the point I’ve been trying to make for the past few weeks, well since Cheney first went that route after the release of the first memos earlier in the years.
First it was “We don’t torture.”
Then after the memos basically left little doubt, it was Cheney that started the “OK, maybe we did torture but it worked” when he then urged the CIA to release the memos showing their “effectiveness.”
You’re absolutely dead on correct.
IT DOESN’T MATTER IF IT WORKED OR NOT. IT’S JUST PLAIN WRONG, AND ILLEGAL.
Cheney is a stone age thug.