Read the WSJ‘s drones/al-Qaeda story and the NYT‘s follow-up. As I write at the Windy, this is indeed a weak point in the counterinsurgents’ argument:
… the question is why the U.S. is able to reap actionable intelligence against its main enemy, al-Qaeda, where there are no U.S. troops, or even really Pakistani troops, but it couldn’t do the same thing against its subsidiary enemy, the Taliban, if it capped U.S. and NATO troop levels at 68,000. Perhaps the circumstances really are different — the Taliban, as Pashtuns, have a much closer relationship to Afghanistan than the mostly Arab upper echelon of al-Qaeda does to Pashtun Pakistan — but if the argument really is that counterinsurgency is a prerequisite for intelligence gathering, the Pakistani case needs to be further explored, because it really does look like a counterexample.
I’m more sympathetic to the counterinsurgents’ argument than I am to any alternative, but I think the counterinsurgents are making a mistake by glossing past this. Robert Haddick at SWJ, for instance, reads the stories, concludes that "anonymous officials are attempting to make the case that intelligence-driven assassinations of al Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan and Pakistan, combined with lawful domestic surveillance techniques, will be enough to effectively protect the U.S. from terror attacks" (duh), and flips the burden of proof:
…the administration officials who are making this case in the New York Times and Washington Post must reassure skeptics that U.S. intelligence collection on al Qaeda, both overseas and inside the U.S., will be very good. One argument for why the U.S. needs to maintain a large presence in “Af-Pak” is that such a presence is needed for the intelligence that a counter-terror strategy relies on.
But the Pakistan case really does cut against that point. We don’t have any such large presence in Pakistan, let alone in the tribal areas. And we’re hearing reports of al-Qaeda targets being killed and harrassed and — well, if not contained, harrassed; let’s stick with "harrassed," for sake of making presumptions. Now, there are a few responses here. One is to say that the intelligence network wouldn’t exist without the U.S.’s over-the-horizon presence in Afghanistan; but you’d need evidence for that, and I haven’t seen any. Another is to contend that we don’t really know whether the drones really are killing who we’re told they’re killing; or, relatedly, that the kill rate is unacceptably high. A third, proposed by Exum and Kilcullen, is that the blowback potentials are too high. And that, I’ll fully admit, worries me a lot. It weirds me out that we should be pissed about death-from-above in, say, Kunduz on Monday but OK with death-from-above in, say, South Waziristan on Tuesday. McChrystal has ended the use of airstrikes for anything but force protection, as Defense Secretary Gates reiterated last night, but they’re still an offensive weapon across the border.
In any event, it doesn’t help any counterinsurgent’s case to respond to a reasonable objection and then say, "Well, you have to convince me first." Then Robert moves on:
Proponents of the counter-terror/law enforcement approach are hoping to avoid the cost and risk of an expanded COIN campaign. But a counter-terror/law enforcement approach has its own costs and risks. Absent a large U.S. military presence, getting the intelligence to strike al Qaeda leadership targets will require the U.S. government to make deals with the most unsavory characters in Central Asia. Do the intelligence officers who will be called upon to aggressively develop this constant stream of intelligence wonder when they will be called upon to discuss their actions either in front of a congressional committee or perhaps a grand jury?
Unsavory characters like… the ISI? The election-thief of Kabul and his band of merry warlords? We’re palling around with them with a large military presence. And no one within the Obama administration is arguing for pulling out. (Gibbs, today: "Leaving Afghanistan isn’t an option.") Instead, the counterterrorism side of the argument is arguing for keeping the U.S. military presence at… the largest it’s ever been in Afghanistan. So while I take the point that perhaps a smaller-than-maximal-but-still-bigger-than-ever footprint might cause the U.S. to sidle up closer to unsavory characters– well, actually, wait. No, I don’t. How would that actually work?
A point of Robert’s that I do take is the need for the nation to come to an actual consensus on what’s acceptable activity here. It has to be as open as possible, with as much congressional support as possible, and as much public support as possible. (I recall a certain DFHer general saying, "At the end of the day, we would be in much worse shape to have a decision made without that level of public debate.") If Robert believes we have to actually break the law to be responsible here, then he should say what laws are problematic here, and the country should debate that proposition. But I’m not really sure what legal impediments are actually in place here that would endanger the warfighters or the intelligence operatives, and certainly Congress hasn’t received word of them. (Unless I’m having a massive memory-fail at the moment…)



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Civilian casualties and the ill-will they cause are an undoubted problem with drone strikes. But they’re also a problem with any form of COIN the force-protection imperatives of the US military will allow to happen in reality, no matter what the rhetoric about “population-centric” COIN might be. There’s no doubt in my mind that 100,000 soldiers, be they ever so committed “on paper” to preventing civilian casualties, will actually cause more civilian deaths in toto than even an aggressive drone strike program.
Regards, Steve
In Pakistan we can conduct drone operations with the tacit support of Pakistan’s government and military (i.e. drones are based inside of Pakistan’s borders).
If we were to drawdown in Pakistan then we would see a replay of the 1990s. The deals Karzai cut with warlords in the run-up to the recent elections are just a taste of what he’d do to survive. And he wouldn’t. Afghanistan would be consumed by unbounded warlordism. Our efforts to build up ANA would melt away as quickly as similar efforts in Iraq in 2005.
If we try to conduct CT with our current force presence as you discuss in the post we will continue to lose ground to the Taliban (as we have been for the last several years), and American public support for the conflict will continue to erode, and we will withdrawal, taking us back to the above scenario of unbounded warlordism.
A reasonable case can be made for walking away. If our chief strategic concern isn’t actually AQ – they operate out of Pakistan and Yemen and we’ve no intention of invading either place – but rather the security of Pakistan and its nuclear arsenal, and if you believe PakMil and the Zardari have both the interest and capacity in preventing TTP from overthrowing the government of Paksitan or getting control of a Pak nuke (even with the pressure of Afghan refugeees fleeing from new violence in Afghanistan) then a reasonable person could judge it’s time to find a way of gracefully disengaging. (Also check out this recent IRI survey of Pakistanis: http://tiny.cc/e89HU )
I think we can still win in Afghanistan though. By win I mean leave with a government in Kabul that isn’t about to fall, and can maintain some control of it’s major population centers with only economic and enabler (intel,logistics, fire support, comm) support from the U.S. And I think an appropriately resourced COIN strategy can get us around the corner in 2 to 3 years. We haven’t tried this before, this isn’t more of the same. I think it’s worth a shot.
http://devilanddevelopment.blogspot.com/
Spencer,
Tangentially OT, but I expect you’ll have a wee bit to say regarding George Packer’s 15 page New Yorker article on Richard Holbrooke:
The Last Mission
Richard Holbrooke’s plan to avoid the mistakes of Vietnam in Afghanistan.
The answer is that they can’t get actionable intelligence the answer is they are lying.
If they could get some Ossama would be dead.
The Taliban we can get intelligence from even though they are the home town boys. But Al Quieda are Arabs in Pakistan different language, customs, but nobody in Pakistan wants to betray them despite all the different family and tribal disputes plus the bounty on Ossama’s head?
Treating a guest with respect is a custom there treating a guest at someone else’s family tribe etc not so much.
There mere thought of U.S. getting actionable intelligence is laughable. A respectable publication would not print such garbage. U.S. spooks are even more incompetent than U.S. military.
Has it worked so far? Is this any different than all the bombing we did in Viet Nam? In other words have attacks etc increased decreased? Have we created more safe areas? I assume that after a few years the army has had plenty of time to get their plans to work.
Yes I’m reading this WSJ paragraph and have found two questionable ideas advanced already and I’m not a military guy.
I long for the day villains told good lies this stuff it is an insult to think we would be taken by.
This embarrasses the WSJ more than it insults us. Amateur would be a complement.
The U.S. military is like the drunk at the party who thinks if he sez it one more time, and a little bit louder, surely everyone will understand. The U.S. military thinks that if they do it one more time, and a little bit harder, surely they’ll win. Beneath contempt.
Good Intelligence would mean you got Ossama after all these years. Judge a tree by its fruit the intel tree has been barren close to a decade its time to give up.
FDL chose to entitle this article ”To COIN or Not To COIN: Afghanistan-Pakistan Policy Needs Public Debate, Consensus”. It seems to have little to do with your article, so I’ll first discuss that.
Yes. We need to have a consensus. What’s more, if there’s one lesson we should have learned from Vietnam, it’s that a years-long campaign with no clear goal in mind is a tough sell to the American people (and probably to any democracy). If the American people aren’t behind this war, then there’s ample evidence that we’ll eventually withdraw without achieving our objectives.
The same could be said about the GOP media or any GOP political campaign.
Eli is upstairs!
How Does Shep Smith Still Have A Job?
Objectives? We don need no stinkin objectives.
Yep. But that everyone is aware of. People don’t often think of applying the same principle to the military.
The government of Pakistan has plenty of reason to cooperate, whether or not we’re just across the border. Al Qaeda is a problem for them, too.
The only thing that our presence affects there, I think, is how much Pakistan has to fear what’s happening in Afghanistan. Whether that would be better or worse were we not there is not at all obvious to me.
reply to Raven @ 14
Objectives? We don need no stinkin objectives.
Sometimes they’re a way of knowing if you’re getting anywhere …
I thought we had a consensus the polls say we the people want out. Phrase the question different to the GOP and ask them are you willing to pay higher taxes to keep the wars going.
Ask the Media and GOP Chicken Hawks if they would volunteer their kids to go fight in combat if they really believe in this war.
The pro war people are pro war because someone else is doing the sacrifice. A man eating ramen noodles and paying $1 in taxes gives more than a billionaire who pays millions in taxes and eats lobster every day.
Asking the Ramen eater to give more while the billionaire eats lobster is wrong.
twas a joke
The last polls I remember said that a slight majority favor either pulling out or not escalating further, depending what question is asked. There’s not a supermajority opinion on this matter, as far as I can see. There’s certainly not an opinion on this that large numbers of Americans are willing to march for and base votes on.
I’d also observe that opinions change. My opinion used to be that this war was necessary. Now, it no longer looks necessary. Things have changed. They can change again, especially when peoples’ opinions aren’t set in stone.
As was my reply.
Our economy is falling apart. We don’t have the resources to play at imperial wars for 2, 3, or the many more years McChrystal envisages. We don’t have an army in Afghanistan for a reason. We have an army in Afghanistan looking for a reason to be there. Some of us have been pointing out for a while that we don’t invade and occupy countries like Somalia, Yemen, and Pakistan where there is an al Qaeda presence. There is no reason we should do this in Afghanistan. We can take of our security interests without COIN and a vast expenditure of resources. We should be reducing our presence not increasing it.
Human beings being human beings how would Americans living in Iowa,Vermont,Texas or Oregon like it if some country half way or farther around the planet was flying drones over them and doing missile attacks and killing civilians willy nilly?
As human beings how would they react? How should they react?
With anger? Anger mixed with large doses of daily dread? Fear mixed with anger mixed with resentment of being subjected to death by someone who does not even have the guts to present themselves in person?
WashingtonDC deserves the blowback it is getting in/from Afghanistan being WashingtonDC should reap the whirlwind it sowed,sows or has sown ( see who created Taliban back when Soviet Union was doing what Americans are doing now in Afghanistan).
Whatever WashingtonDC is up to over or in Pakistan surely will yield blowback too.
Gosh darn how come again? Why are Afghanis and Pakistanis fighting back and resisting and killing Americans who are in Afghanistan and Pakistan killing Afghanis and Pakistanis? Don’t they know that is not allowed? Americans can fly into and over countries and kill but people who live in those countries are not allowed to fight back. Now why is that? Why is this so?
It is not just the stupidity. It is the arrogance it comes wrapped in.
WashingtonDC should get out of Asia. Get out now.
President Obama? Do you think you could maybe do the stand up guy thing here? For a change?
Sept. 23 WSJ poll:
Americans are pessimistic about the prospects of victory in Afghanistan; 59% say they are feeling less confident that the war will come to a successful conclusion. And 51% say they would oppose sending more troops to the conflict.
Sept. 22 Pew poll:
Currently, half of Americans (50%) say military troops should remain in Afghanistan until the situation has stabilized, while 43% favor removing U.S. and NATO troops as soon as possible. In June, 57% favored keeping U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan, while 38% favored their removal as soon as possible.
Sept. 15 CNN poll:
A CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey released Tuesday morning indicates that 39 percent of Americans favor the war in Afghanistan, with 58 percent opposed to the mission.
You have exactly the right perspective, the moral perspective. Too bad our political leaders are almost totally lacking a moral compass.
My reply was to shootthatarrow at 23.
I think we should leave. But if Obama can have a small footprint cointerinsurrgency operation in Afghanistan I’m okay with that too, as long as we’ve got a “trigger” for leaving in the event the dollar cost and body count remain high.
It’s not about OUR terror- the oil, the giant ANYAK copper deposit that’s been auctioned off by the IMF and World bank, others are currently underway. NATO forces are guaranteeing safety for capitalist enterprises.
The open for business sign has been set out, but unfortunately, the current residents do not feel like selling their heritage. Our wise men don’t believe in the right of self determinism, and therefore, terror will need to be administered until they agree that serfdom is in their longterm self interests.
All the contorting and twisting will not make these lies fit the story line they need us to believe – that is their real problem. Some things never change.
The White Man’s Burden by Rudyard Kipling
Take up the White Man’s burden–
Send forth the best ye breed–
Go, bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives’ need;
To wait, in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild–
Your new-caught sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.
Take up the White Man’s burden–
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain,
To seek another’s profit
And work another’s gain.
Take up the White Man’s burden–
The savage wars of peace–
Fill full the mouth of Famine,
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
(The end for others sought)
Watch sloth and heathen folly
Bring all your hope to nought.
Take up the White Man’s burden–
No iron rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper–
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go, make them with your living
And mark them with your dead.
Take up the White Man’s burden,
And reap his old reward–
The blame of those ye better
The hate of those ye guard–
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:–
“Why brought ye us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?”
Take up the White Man’s burden–
Ye dare not stoop to less–
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloak your weariness.
By all ye will or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent sullen peoples
Shall weigh your God and you.
Take up the White Man’s burden!
Have done with childish days–
The lightly-proffered laurel,
The easy ungrudged praise:
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years,
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers.
First comment among probably a couple. “Unsavory characters in Central Asia” cannot refer to the ISI, which is Pakistani, and therefore not in Central Asia, which starts to the north of Afghanistan (it’s the “-stans”). And one other thing, then I have to go think about more of what you said: The better intelligence in Pakistan is Pakistani intelligence. The reason the strikes have gotten so much more accurate and less intolerable since May 5th is that the Pakistanis are calling them in. One reason that might require a presence to the north is that the Pakistanis will change strategy if the balance of power changes in Afghanistan, because they are involved in a hegemonic struggle with other regional powers (the Taliban are their projection into that struggle). More later.
fools this war is about the industrial military complex that controls wash
even obama has fallen into line with their desires for continual wars for profits
makes one wonder who controls the country
obama may only be a figure head
we will be in afghan for a long time to come
after all the chinese are paying for the war not the american taxpayer
we dont want health care for the sick and needy but wars for profits americans love that
the only thing we make anymore is wars
the christian nation always at war
christianity died on the cross.
Same old-same old war propaganda. Like it has never happened before, and we have never heard it before and never learn.
Somehow I think Pres. Obama would be more accomodating to the wishes of Republicans who want us to leave or maintain only a small presence in Afghanistan if they would only vote in significant numbers for the healthcare reform legislation.
Some might say such a horse trading deal would be immoral, but is it. Where are more lives likely to be lost or saved? Would such a deal be better for Americans?
Such questions should probably never be asked because people aren’t especially good at answering them and that’s an embarrassment.
On AfPak specifically, the question has always been whether we have destroyed Al Qaeda. The Taliban are not one and the same as AQ and they aren’t likely to be a threat to us if we leave one of them alive. It was mostly the Egyptian al Zawahiri and the Saudi-Yemeni bin Laden who wanted to hurt America because of our presence in the Middle East and our support of Israel. The Taliban have never shown a strong interest in fighting us over that.
Second, if Al Qaeda is still strong, then why would we have so much trouble finding them when they move with the Taliban from Pak to Af? Seems McChrystal needs new glasses, unless it’s someone further up the food chain who has made it more difficult for McChrystal’s Af forces to do the job properly.
I thought we were supposed to be the anvil to Pakistan’s hammer. They would attack and push the Taliban & AQ in Pakistan and if the T & AQ ran back to Afghanistan we would be there to crush them (as anvils do). Where has the anvil effect been?
We know there are jihadists and we know the Taliban are very proud and will fight a very long time (even in the face of big defeats). Their recent big battle in Afghanistan’s north shows they know how to prepare and attack. Our 145 fighters lost 10, they had 700 and lost about 100. We lost 10, they lost 100. I’d say that if we can fight them and have our resources, then we can win. So, why haven’t we had more battles until recently when there has been talk of our retreat? Is it that the enemy wants to hit us and then watch us leave, so they can claim victory?
There’s too much ego involved. We have to decide what to do based on whether we’re done with Al Qaeda. They attacked us (presumably), not Saddam Hussein or the Taliban.