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	<title>Comments on: Pro-Israel, Pro-Peace, Continued Endlessly</title>
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	<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/pro-israel-pro-peace-continued-endlessly/</link>
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		<title>By: Spencer Ackerman</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/pro-israel-pro-peace-continued-endlessly/#comment-16590</link>
		<dc:creator>Spencer Ackerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4347#comment-16590</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I think we’ll end up with a democracy for Jews, with some Arabs as leavening. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza will continue to be outside the Israeli political system.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Think about this. You realize that&#039;s an apartheid system when the Palestinians/Israeli Arabs are a majority, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I think we’ll end up with a democracy for Jews, with some Arabs as leavening. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza will continue to be outside the Israeli political system.</p></blockquote>
<p>Think about this. You realize that&#8217;s an apartheid system when the Palestinians/Israeli Arabs are a majority, right?</p>
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		<title>By: FredJ</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/pro-israel-pro-peace-continued-endlessly/#comment-16575</link>
		<dc:creator>FredJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4347#comment-16575</guid>
		<description>I think we&#039;ll end up with a democracy for Jews, with some Arabs as leavening.  The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza will continue to be outside the Israeli political system.

However unstable this is, it seems to me to be the most stable configuration.

There are plenty of other Arab states, there are plenty of other multi-cultural democracies.  There is no other Jewish state.

Belief in democracy for Arabs and Palestinian nationalism were both built up as a tool against Israel, and are seen that way in most of Israel.  Neither belief had much traction among the Arabs before 1948.  However, they are effective in cleaving the US and Europe away from Israel, and have become political forces with their own trajectory and energy.

For Israel to give up control of the West Bank and Gaza would simply invite Hamas, Hezbollah and Syria to use those places to launch the war to liberate the rest of &quot;Palestine&quot; from the &quot;Occupation of 1948&quot;.

There is no way to get the Arabs to agree to an end of claims.  And if they did, the Israelis would not believe them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we&#8217;ll end up with a democracy for Jews, with some Arabs as leavening.  The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza will continue to be outside the Israeli political system.</p>
<p>However unstable this is, it seems to me to be the most stable configuration.</p>
<p>There are plenty of other Arab states, there are plenty of other multi-cultural democracies.  There is no other Jewish state.</p>
<p>Belief in democracy for Arabs and Palestinian nationalism were both built up as a tool against Israel, and are seen that way in most of Israel.  Neither belief had much traction among the Arabs before 1948.  However, they are effective in cleaving the US and Europe away from Israel, and have become political forces with their own trajectory and energy.</p>
<p>For Israel to give up control of the West Bank and Gaza would simply invite Hamas, Hezbollah and Syria to use those places to launch the war to liberate the rest of &#8220;Palestine&#8221; from the &#8220;Occupation of 1948&#8243;.</p>
<p>There is no way to get the Arabs to agree to an end of claims.  And if they did, the Israelis would not believe them.</p>
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		<title>By: losgatosca</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/pro-israel-pro-peace-continued-endlessly/#comment-16274</link>
		<dc:creator>losgatosca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 02:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4347#comment-16274</guid>
		<description>Boers and South Africa.

White Europeans and Native Americans.

Ethnic cleansing is the historic answer to the problem, one way or the other.

Complicated by their neighborhood, Israelis have gone native.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boers and South Africa.</p>
<p>White Europeans and Native Americans.</p>
<p>Ethnic cleansing is the historic answer to the problem, one way or the other.</p>
<p>Complicated by their neighborhood, Israelis have gone native.</p>
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		<title>By: mikeyhemlok</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/pro-israel-pro-peace-continued-endlessly/#comment-16271</link>
		<dc:creator>mikeyhemlok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4347#comment-16271</guid>
		<description>I think you got it just right, and the sense of urgency is an important part of the analysis.  The trajectory of history is not difficult to predict, and the future of Israel writ large is the future of Palestine.  It&#039;s an oversimplification to merely observe that the status quo, while unsustainable, provides the sustenance for those who hold power in Tel Aviv.

But it&#039;s still important to understand that the people with the power TODAY have nothing to gain from peace or from a legitimate Palestinian state.  Sure, they have Iran as a fallback enemy, but as long as they can maintain a perpetual state of war they can maintain power.  It is, more than anything else, a political calculation.  The state of Israel is sustained, for the present, by war, hate and occupation.

The calculation will only change, just as it did in Northern Ireland, when the leadership believes it has more to gain from real peace than it does from eternal war....

mikey</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you got it just right, and the sense of urgency is an important part of the analysis.  The trajectory of history is not difficult to predict, and the future of Israel writ large is the future of Palestine.  It&#8217;s an oversimplification to merely observe that the status quo, while unsustainable, provides the sustenance for those who hold power in Tel Aviv.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s still important to understand that the people with the power TODAY have nothing to gain from peace or from a legitimate Palestinian state.  Sure, they have Iran as a fallback enemy, but as long as they can maintain a perpetual state of war they can maintain power.  It is, more than anything else, a political calculation.  The state of Israel is sustained, for the present, by war, hate and occupation.</p>
<p>The calculation will only change, just as it did in Northern Ireland, when the leadership believes it has more to gain from real peace than it does from eternal war&#8230;.</p>
<p>mikey</p>
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		<title>By: TheOtherAlan</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/pro-israel-pro-peace-continued-endlessly/#comment-16270</link>
		<dc:creator>TheOtherAlan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 01:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4347#comment-16270</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see how you can be pro-Israel by acquiesing to its division so as to maintain segregation from, and discrimination against, Palestinians whose homeland it is also.  Israel&#039;s &#039;Jewishness&#039; is incidental to its Zionism.  All the talk about Jewish values is baloney if the the aim is to turn victims into victimizers and glory in the result.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see how you can be pro-Israel by acquiesing to its division so as to maintain segregation from, and discrimination against, Palestinians whose homeland it is also.  Israel&#8217;s &#8216;Jewishness&#8217; is incidental to its Zionism.  All the talk about Jewish values is baloney if the the aim is to turn victims into victimizers and glory in the result.</p>
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