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	<title>Comments on: The Democratic Process</title>
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	<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/03/the-democratic-process/</link>
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		<title>By: mikeyhemlok</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/03/the-democratic-process/#comment-17097</link>
		<dc:creator>mikeyhemlok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4519#comment-17097</guid>
		<description>But it&#039;s also fair to note that we have EXPERIENCE with these things.  Right - wing government maintains power by identifying external enemies, fear mongering and demonizing, with the narrative that no one else can keep you safe, especially not those pansy lefties, hell, they can&#039;t WAIT to start appeasing.  Bush/Cheney won re-election in 2004 doing exactly the same thing.

So given that we know how the end of the story turns out, we actually DO have an obligation to say to the Israeli people &quot;listen, some of this is lies being told to you for political purposes, and we think you need to set aside the rhetoric and think about what the long term consequences of these policies are for you as a people&quot;.

mikey</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But it&#8217;s also fair to note that we have EXPERIENCE with these things.  Right &#8211; wing government maintains power by identifying external enemies, fear mongering and demonizing, with the narrative that no one else can keep you safe, especially not those pansy lefties, hell, they can&#8217;t WAIT to start appeasing.  Bush/Cheney won re-election in 2004 doing exactly the same thing.</p>
<p>So given that we know how the end of the story turns out, we actually DO have an obligation to say to the Israeli people &#8220;listen, some of this is lies being told to you for political purposes, and we think you need to set aside the rhetoric and think about what the long term consequences of these policies are for you as a people&#8221;.</p>
<p>mikey</p>
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		<title>By: jaykaydee</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/03/the-democratic-process/#comment-17093</link>
		<dc:creator>jaykaydee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4519#comment-17093</guid>
		<description>&quot;We in the Shtetl ought to take stock of the way we tend to hector our Israeli cousins.&quot;

Sure. But as &lt;em&gt;Americans&lt;/em&gt; we&#039;re under no obligation to look out for anything other than, as you point out, our self-interest. I think my self-interest as both an American, leftist and Jew is best-served by promoting the continuance and further development of liberal democratic norms around the world. The current Israeli government actively undermines these goals in numerous ways, from its maintenance of Gaza as an open-air prison, refusal to engage in any way with the elected government there, denial of full citizenship rights to more than a million of its own citizens, etc.

That isn&#039;t the kind of government I want my country supporting, especially not with our largest foreign aid disbursements, especially for an explicit subsidization of those military efforts.

Of course when we tell our &lt;em&gt;own&lt;/em&gt; government (D or R) these same things, see what good it does. But still. 

I get your point and don&#039;t think you&#039;re wrong: for one thing, IDF service doesn&#039;t await us or our children/cousins/brothers/sisters, and the reality of personal vulnerability has a way of changing things. But beyond lecturing our sabra cousins what&#039;s good for them, we really should think more clearly and explicitly about what&#039;s good for &lt;em&gt;us&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;We in the Shtetl ought to take stock of the way we tend to hector our Israeli cousins.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sure. But as <em>Americans</em> we&#8217;re under no obligation to look out for anything other than, as you point out, our self-interest. I think my self-interest as both an American, leftist and Jew is best-served by promoting the continuance and further development of liberal democratic norms around the world. The current Israeli government actively undermines these goals in numerous ways, from its maintenance of Gaza as an open-air prison, refusal to engage in any way with the elected government there, denial of full citizenship rights to more than a million of its own citizens, etc.</p>
<p>That isn&#8217;t the kind of government I want my country supporting, especially not with our largest foreign aid disbursements, especially for an explicit subsidization of those military efforts.</p>
<p>Of course when we tell our <em>own</em> government (D or R) these same things, see what good it does. But still. </p>
<p>I get your point and don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re wrong: for one thing, IDF service doesn&#8217;t await us or our children/cousins/brothers/sisters, and the reality of personal vulnerability has a way of changing things. But beyond lecturing our sabra cousins what&#8217;s good for them, we really should think more clearly and explicitly about what&#8217;s good for <em>us</em>.</p>
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