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	<title>Comments on: So. Was Suppressing Goldstone Worth It?</title>
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	<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/05/so-was-suppressing-goldstone-worth-it/</link>
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		<title>By: fairleft</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/05/so-was-suppressing-goldstone-worth-it/#comment-17457</link>
		<dc:creator>fairleft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4601#comment-17457</guid>
		<description>Abbas moderate? Accepting bantustan status marks you as a moderate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abbas moderate? Accepting bantustan status marks you as a moderate?</p>
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		<title>By: dpboehm</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/05/so-was-suppressing-goldstone-worth-it/#comment-17455</link>
		<dc:creator>dpboehm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4601#comment-17455</guid>
		<description>Obama has zero power to conduct an independent foreign policy. Israel&#039;s power and influence has always been in Congress, where the checks are written, thus the passing of a factually deficient resolution on Goldstone with zero debate or discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama has zero power to conduct an independent foreign policy. Israel&#8217;s power and influence has always been in Congress, where the checks are written, thus the passing of a factually deficient resolution on Goldstone with zero debate or discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: hazmaq</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/05/so-was-suppressing-goldstone-worth-it/#comment-17454</link>
		<dc:creator>hazmaq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:25:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4601#comment-17454</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re wrong, on all counts.  


Abbas is seen a weak crony and Hamas only stepped and got elected because of that. Not much has changed.  The report proved how poor Abbas is at leading.

Hamas does take extreme measures.  All people of Palestine have left to fight with is their lives - which they freely give. 

This war was about killing - directly and indirectly. 
They pulled the same US approved trick in Lebanon, where they didn&#039;t just target the southern border where Hizb&#039;allah lived.  
They bombed every inch of Lebanon from top to bottom.  Every business, hotel, dairy farm and industry was hit out of pure hate and greed - and jealousy in an effort to break down and starve them.
 
That&#039;s the monster the US has created.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re wrong, on all counts.  </p>
<p>Abbas is seen a weak crony and Hamas only stepped and got elected because of that. Not much has changed.  The report proved how poor Abbas is at leading.</p>
<p>Hamas does take extreme measures.  All people of Palestine have left to fight with is their lives &#8211; which they freely give. </p>
<p>This war was about killing &#8211; directly and indirectly.<br />
They pulled the same US approved trick in Lebanon, where they didn&#8217;t just target the southern border where Hizb&#8217;allah lived.<br />
They bombed every inch of Lebanon from top to bottom.  Every business, hotel, dairy farm and industry was hit out of pure hate and greed &#8211; and jealousy in an effort to break down and starve them.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the monster the US has created.</p>
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		<title>By: endiem</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/05/so-was-suppressing-goldstone-worth-it/#comment-17453</link>
		<dc:creator>endiem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4601#comment-17453</guid>
		<description>Given decades of failure of US &quot;leadership&quot; in seeking a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict I think the most likely game changer will be the arrest and prosecution in Europe of a senior Israeli politician or military officer.

The fairly courageous Italian prosecution of CIA officials might perhaps be a wakeup call. From the accounts I read the CIA guys were so cocky about their being no consequences to their actions that they all but tweeted and live blogged the kidnapping.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given decades of failure of US &#8220;leadership&#8221; in seeking a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict I think the most likely game changer will be the arrest and prosecution in Europe of a senior Israeli politician or military officer.</p>
<p>The fairly courageous Italian prosecution of CIA officials might perhaps be a wakeup call. From the accounts I read the CIA guys were so cocky about their being no consequences to their actions that they all but tweeted and live blogged the kidnapping.</p>
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		<title>By: endiem</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/05/so-was-suppressing-goldstone-worth-it/#comment-17452</link>
		<dc:creator>endiem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4601#comment-17452</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Unlike some here, I am fundamentally sympathetic to Israel.&lt;/em&gt;

The idea that anyone who criticizes Israel can not be &quot;fundamentally sympathetic to Israel&quot; is pretty hackneyed by now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Unlike some here, I am fundamentally sympathetic to Israel.</em></p>
<p>The idea that anyone who criticizes Israel can not be &#8220;fundamentally sympathetic to Israel&#8221; is pretty hackneyed by now.</p>
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		<title>By: robspierre</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/05/so-was-suppressing-goldstone-worth-it/#comment-17451</link>
		<dc:creator>robspierre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4601#comment-17451</guid>
		<description>&quot;what hurts Abbas doesn’t necessarily benefit Hamas, and Hamas’ stated refusal to accept elections next year testifies to their own weakness and unpopularity. &quot;

I can&#039;t really agree that Abbas is a moderate except opportunistically. But your point is well taken even so. Weakness and unpopularity are not characteristics that lead to decisive action, hard bargaining, and a readiness to make as well as win concessions. The biggest problem with the peace process is not so much who is in power in Palestine as that no one is in power. You don&#039;t have to be strong to throw sand in the works. 

I&#039;d go farther and argue that this has also been the problem in Israel for years. Unlike some here, I am fundamentally sympathetic to Israel. But its fractious, splintered politics have left it without strong leadership for decades. A strong leader, even a strong Likud leader like Menachem Begin, could make peace--and did. But teetering coalitions of small-minded types can&#039;t. Instead, their leaders substitute bluster for strength and a smart country ends up being run by a blowhard like Netanyahu.

So undercutting, weakening, and further splintering what passes for Palestinian political authority is unlikely to do anything except make the status quo more so--more little leaders puffing uop their chests and asserting themselves by blocking improvements of all kinds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;what hurts Abbas doesn’t necessarily benefit Hamas, and Hamas’ stated refusal to accept elections next year testifies to their own weakness and unpopularity. &#8221;</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t really agree that Abbas is a moderate except opportunistically. But your point is well taken even so. Weakness and unpopularity are not characteristics that lead to decisive action, hard bargaining, and a readiness to make as well as win concessions. The biggest problem with the peace process is not so much who is in power in Palestine as that no one is in power. You don&#8217;t have to be strong to throw sand in the works. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d go farther and argue that this has also been the problem in Israel for years. Unlike some here, I am fundamentally sympathetic to Israel. But its fractious, splintered politics have left it without strong leadership for decades. A strong leader, even a strong Likud leader like Menachem Begin, could make peace&#8211;and did. But teetering coalitions of small-minded types can&#8217;t. Instead, their leaders substitute bluster for strength and a smart country ends up being run by a blowhard like Netanyahu.</p>
<p>So undercutting, weakening, and further splintering what passes for Palestinian political authority is unlikely to do anything except make the status quo more so&#8211;more little leaders puffing uop their chests and asserting themselves by blocking improvements of all kinds.</p>
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		<title>By: FredJ</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/05/so-was-suppressing-goldstone-worth-it/#comment-17450</link>
		<dc:creator>FredJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4601#comment-17450</guid>
		<description>1.  There was no way to guess the outcome in terms of Palestinian politics.

2.  They probably read the report and decided that on balance it was unfair.  Sometimes you just have to call &#039;em as you see &#039;em.

3.  It&#039;s reasonable to estimate the number of Israeli soldiers in Operation Cast Lead at about 4000.  If they each had killed 1 person per day for the 22-day conflict, there would be 88,000 dead Gazans.  The actual toll was less than 2% of that.  Clearly the war wasn&#039;t about killing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.  There was no way to guess the outcome in terms of Palestinian politics.</p>
<p>2.  They probably read the report and decided that on balance it was unfair.  Sometimes you just have to call &#8216;em as you see &#8216;em.</p>
<p>3.  It&#8217;s reasonable to estimate the number of Israeli soldiers in Operation Cast Lead at about 4000.  If they each had killed 1 person per day for the 22-day conflict, there would be 88,000 dead Gazans.  The actual toll was less than 2% of that.  Clearly the war wasn&#8217;t about killing.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/05/so-was-suppressing-goldstone-worth-it/#comment-17449</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4601#comment-17449</guid>
		<description>The whole reason a Goldstone Commission was necessary in the first place is because Israel has a long history of whitewashes when it comes to the action&#039;s of its troops.  I can&#039;t even begin to say how often they have investigated them in the wake of some particularly egregious incident that sparked international protest.  Months later there is always the report that says their troops did nothing wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole reason a Goldstone Commission was necessary in the first place is because Israel has a long history of whitewashes when it comes to the action&#8217;s of its troops.  I can&#8217;t even begin to say how often they have investigated them in the wake of some particularly egregious incident that sparked international protest.  Months later there is always the report that says their troops did nothing wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: ProgThis</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/05/so-was-suppressing-goldstone-worth-it/#comment-17447</link>
		<dc:creator>ProgThis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:34:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4601#comment-17447</guid>
		<description>We get jewish PAC money - oh wait</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We get jewish PAC money &#8211; oh wait</p>
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		<title>By: Leen</title>
		<link>http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/11/05/so-was-suppressing-goldstone-worth-it/#comment-17445</link>
		<dc:creator>Leen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/?p=4601#comment-17445</guid>
		<description>&quot;proceedings it could spare itself from if it credibly investigates them itself&quot;

Do you actually think that would be possible?



Efforts to bring or accept Judge Goldstone&#039;s offer to come to the hill
http://codepinkalert.org/article.php?id=5155

Surprised Code Pink or some other group has not started a petition drive to submit signatures to bring Goldstone to the hill

A petition to Abbas
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/lettertoabbas/index.html


Kucinich response to covering up war crimes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tscCJznwIsA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;proceedings it could spare itself from if it credibly investigates them itself&#8221;</p>
<p>Do you actually think that would be possible?</p>
<p>Efforts to bring or accept Judge Goldstone&#8217;s offer to come to the hill<br />
<a href="http://codepinkalert.org/article.php?id=5155" rel="nofollow">http://codepinkalert.org/article.php?id=5155</a></p>
<p>Surprised Code Pink or some other group has not started a petition drive to submit signatures to bring Goldstone to the hill</p>
<p>A petition to Abbas<br />
<a href="http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/lettertoabbas/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/lettertoabbas/index.html</a></p>
<p>Kucinich response to covering up war crimes<br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tscCJznwIsA" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tscCJznwIsA</a></p>
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