His bottom line is that there are two real options in Afghanistan: Either tell the Kabul government we are pulling out, or put in enough troops to actually break the cycle of corruption, which he said would be a minimum of about 40,000. “We either put in enough to control, or we get out.” The worst thing we could do, he added, is put in enough troops to get more people killed but not enough to do anything to break change the behavior of corrupt officials. Also, he said, it is more about what you do than the actual number of troops — “If you do it wrong, you could put it a million troops and it wouldn’t make any difference.”
Now, the reason I couldn’t attend Dave’s talk is because I was finishing up this story, about how a 40,000-troop increase in Afghanistan will entail deploying practically every available combat brigade the U.S. has to either Afghanistan or Iraq. There are some ways of mitigating that: there may be a Marine regiment or maybe two ready, but overwhelmingly, the force has to come from the Army. And like Andy Krepinevich told me, there’s nothing that says you can’t go all in — is it really so likely that Iran or North Korea will take advantage of U.S. overstretch? — but it is indeed a gamble. Furthermore, unless you’re going to ask five heavy brigades to become infantry brigades, something that’s been done in Iraq but never Afghanistan, then you’ve only got 31,600 soldiers you could send into Afghanistan available in December. More than 40,000 is really kind of pushing it, particularly if the point is to sustain the escalation for longer than the length of the additional brigades’ tours.
So the question becomes where else you get the forces to make the “all” in Dave’s all-or-nothing approach work. Anders Fogh Rasmussen says enigmatically that he thinks the NATO allies will pony up. And maybe they will, but it will break precedent, and the question of what they’d do remains, as does the related question of national caveats inhibiting the actions of troops from select NATO nations. If I had been at Dave’s NSN/CAP talk, I’d have asked him why a “minimum of 40,000″ is the magic number, but as it stands I suspect I’ll have to do so by email.



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Perhaps the problem is not so much that the Afghan government is corrupt but that they are so “In your face” about it. They need to be more like Americans and do it with style and finis. Obviously studying U.S. contractors and their government overseers right there in Kabul would be a very good start.
And yet you are willing to go ‘all in’ on a pair of fives just to see the flop.
I’d love to be across the table from you.
We don’t have the troops to do it.
It’s not worth the blood or the treasure.
The only solution is to bomb Iran.
Has anyone answered what we are doing there? Maybe Karen Hughes can go back. She claimed alot of success, as did Laura, if I recall.
Spencer, I recommend a minor poetic change to the title of your post:
It lends itself more appropriately to the dumbfoundedness of the question. *g*
Yes, of course, but no one is paying attention to anyone who is asking the right Qs.
I think Rod Blagojevich must have been giving lessons. *g*
Now, now. Innocent until convicted.
So OT…I just read that the W Education center will be on 23 acres at SMU…the campus area is already so crowded, getting more so, etc etc. Let alone some of the most high dollar land in the country, heart of the Park Cities….We/ve come along way Babbbbyyyy
Lesseee now…countin’ NATO and us, we’ve got about a hundred thousand troops there right now, and it aint workin’…
I mean, I’m takin’ General McChrystal’s word for that, since he’s practically SHREIKING that it aint workin’.
So. My question is:
If we put in 40,000 more (or whatever…) and THEN it starts to work; that is “stability”; soybean producing instead of Hashish and poppy-growing; Afghans proudly voting with purple fingers instead of with RPG’s and AK-47′s…etc., etc…
If all of this comes to pass, then what happens when the 140,000 troops leave?
Or, do the preznint and the pentagon plan on keeping them there indefinitely? And if they do, could they pretty please tell us so, in time for the mid-terms, not to mention, the general, in 2012?
Just askin’…
eCAHN: “The only solution is to bomb Iran.”
That, and to rush out and buy 5 copies of Sarah Palin’s weighty tome. :o)
Pretty amazing we have what, over three million folk in the armed services and Dog knows how many contractors… Out of all that only 150ish thousand are combat ready.
Insanity. Let’s pay for some humanitarian aid and get out.
Oh, thanks. I forgot that one.
“Is it really so likely that Iran or North Korea will take advantage of U.S. overstretch?”
As Tom Lehrer sang, in his little spoof of Werner Von Braun:
“…und I’m learning Chinese…”
A Chinese buildup across from Taiwan would be the REAL turn of the vise-handle.
Because she is the one with the answers?? You betcha, Or, I’ll find out and bring ‘em to ya.
Not sure of the exact figures, but seems like 100,000 plus in Iraq and Afghanistan, and most have been employed multiple times, despite mercenaries.
Let me know Palin’s insights, plz.
Our monetary debt to China constrains their actions as much as ours. You don’t go to to war (literally or figuratively) with somebody who owes you a lot of money unless you’ve forsaken all hope of repayment.
Same as the number of colleges she had to attend to get her bachelors degree.
Very well done on Maddow, Spencer.
Belligerism vis-a-vis China is completely ridiculous given the symbiotic relationship.
Unbelievable. America has over 700 military bases around the globe. The money we spend on *national security* is more then all the other nations on earth combined.
We have already poured nearly $1,000,000,000,000 into the Iraq and Afghanistan sinkholes.
And here we are talking about not having enough troops!!
Only when American voters truly grasp the extent to which defense spending is really about the military industrial complex [or as Colin Powell calls it, *the terrorist industrial complex* is there any chance of this military madness changing.
Which means the odds are remote indeed.
I suggest we take it back to the shores of Afghanistan and pose the question regarding our National Security by asking who exactly will invade our country and by what means; The terrorists and whose Navy?
American defensive wars are idiot fairy tales.
Pretty funny, isn’t it.
Why does Rachel do that sideways mouth thing? It’s rather disturbing.
We are phooked, they know it, we know it and that is why the we are getting these arbitrary messages out of the Whitehouse.
It doesn’t matter one bit how many people we send to be cannon fodder in Afghanistan.
Pakistan is where we should be blowing up mothers and children randomly and they freakin’ know it.
We can’t feed a quarter of our own country but we can guide remote controlled toy airplanes with bombs to kill some dirt poor sonofabitch with starving children of his own halfway around the world every day.
Iraq and Afghanistan are lost causes, no one will say it out loud.
Can I interest you in a quart of oil though?
It is important to realize that Dave Kilcullen is erecting a strawman. 40,000 troops are what McChrystal wants. That is not all in. In a country the size of Afghanistan with its mountainous geography, that number of troops will make no difference. The pullout scenario is equally deceptive because it implies we abandon any security interests we may have in that region. This simply isn’t so. We can pursue legitimate security objectives like we do elsewhere. We simply don’t need a large army in-country to do it.
I have no idea why Spencer accords Kilcullen so much respect if this is the best he can come up with.
Heck, forget Iran and N.Korea. I wanna know who’s gonna protect US! ? The country’s naked and defenseless!
And no healthcare if we get wounded!
Ask Rasmussen to tell his countrymen to pony up if he thinks a 40k escalation is so groovy.
more troops yes that will work like it did in nam.
it appeared to work in iraq but that was more about payoffs than soldiers
but the american people will believe just about anything their military tells them.
karma time in america.
Right.
Now how do we get on the same footing with Israel? China cant tell us what to do but they do? I don’t get our battered wife mentality. Why do we let them push us around?
Also given that they are too smart to go to war on the other side of the world. Only a complete fool would do something that stupid.
I strongly disagree with your last sentence.
I believe the *the terrorist industrial complex* is coming out of the closet and the American voters are starting to grasp what is really going on; media is even starting to cover it. I believe the war tide has turned.
Perhaps you don’t see how this fits into a bigger picture, but since I had an actual plan to end the war, I do. My plan IS working. Slowly and not as well as I would like, but working none the less. It is all about rights and values, making choices and using the rule of law.
Yeah hello … Mexico.
That is what they ARE worried about, that Mexico will invade us with friendly and willing workers trying to prop up our economy with their low cost labor.
Don’t worry, they took care of it already. Lou Dobbs sounded the alarm. Big cops rushed in, lives and families were destroyed, the economy was crashed, folks lost their homes. Mission accomplished.
What McChrystal wants are boy toys.
Do we ask him how many more lives he would enjoy destroying?
I think the guy is a torturing murderer. Is he also motivated by religion or is he just a psychopath?
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_5198.shtml
It appeared to work in Iraq because of a very well coordinated media blitz.
Unforeseen emergencies
In actuality, the only national security emergency that can be reasonably addressed by our armed forces is an invasion of the US. A battalion or two could handle that contingency, should it arise. Not that sending even the maximum number of troops to Afghanistan would leave us with only two battalions stateside, or even just the ten thousand figure you get by subtracting 40 thou from the 50 thou currently in deployable status. Many tens of thousands of other troops are present in the US, but are considered non-deployable because of recent deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan. They could, of course, act to defend the US, deployable status notwithstanding.
The scenarios cited, N Korea and Iran, aren’t potential national security emergencies. They’re situations where we might want to try out a foreign adventure on short notice. But our involvement in either would be wars of choice, not anything with any sort of timeline thrust on us by the actions of others.
The less force we have available for these little larks the unequivocal better. The root of the problem with our involvements in Iraq and Afghanistan is that we had any forces at all just sitting around in the US ready to be thrown into these highly non-emergent little adventures.
Ackerman probably means well. He seems to hope that raising this point will somehow act to dissuade sending more troops to Afghanistan, and no doubt the fewer troops sent there the better. But this reason for that sensible policy, that it will leave us defenseless at home, or even somehow simply deprived of a capability to do something vital to our national security, engaging in fresh foreign adventures at a moment’s notice, is part of the problem — it is the problem — not any part of the solution. Let’s not validate madness and stupidity.
I strongly opposed the war in Iraq, but I have supported the war in Afghanistan and I still do today. Because of the Bush administration’s gross mishandling of the war in Afghanistan for the past 7 years, the situation there has greatly deteriorated instead of improving as it should have. Now that we finally have a president who has shown a clear commitment to giving the war in Afghanistan the attention it deserved all along, instead, anti-war leftists are pulling out every excuse they can think of to demand a pull out ASAP.
The latest justification is the claim that we just don’t have enough troops to send. Nevermind that if this were true President Obama would have determined this already and used this as justification for his decision. But I’d like to point out that there seems to be some discrepancy between their claim and the numbers.
Our military population is 1.4 million. Last time I checked we had around 130,000 military personnel in Iraq and 68,000 in Afghanistan. Let’s round that up to 200,000 and multiply it by two. That leaves one million U.S. military personnel that are not serving in Iraq or Afghanistan and we can’t find another 40K somewhere?
Now I realize that it’s a bit more complicated than a simple calculation of total military population. There are military personnel who for one reason or another could not be utilized in a fighting capacity or whose training or duties would not be useful in the Afghanistan theater.
Still, we have well over 100,000 military personnel stationed in Germany, Japan, South Korea, Italy, and the United Kingdom. Why? The Cold War is over. Perhaps if we shifted some of these folks from their bases where there is ZERO conflict, to a country in which Al-Qaeda and similar groups are STILL operating nine years after 9/11, we could find the troops that some anti-war folks want us to believe simply don’t exist.
I’m not an advocate of imperialism. Not at all. I am, however, an advocate of trying to keep the United States a safe place and eliminating organizations bent on destroying the life and property of the U.S. and our allies.
Allowing al-Qaeda to regain Afghanistan as a safe haven in which to operate in is not in the best interests of the United States and our national security. Allowing Pakistan to slip into chaos because of a deteriorating situation in Afghanistan is not in the best interests of the United States and our national security.
I’d like to remind those who used to claim the same: the war in Afghanistan was the right war all along. A lot of folks on the left used to believe this, or pretended to, back when they were arguing (rightly so) against the war in Iraq. But ever since an end to the war in Iraq became a real possibility the claim that the war in Afghanistan was a necessity has went by the wayside.
I have watched the anti-war propaganda campaign shift to the conflict in Afghanistan and I think it is misguided and I hope it doesn’t influence the President in his decision.
The willingness to characterize your admirable struggle with this question (which eerily echoes my own, though I think I’ve drifted further than you) as potentially support for “neo-Imperialism” on the part of people the likes of Andrew (fucking) Sullivan (and believe me, that is not an inaccurate claim) has to be one of the most intolerable hypocrisies that can have been encountered in public discourse this side of Obama’s inauguration. It is for me anyway.
All of which is to say, I get where you’re coming from man.