All y’all can save your Peter Beinart hatred. The man gave me a job right out of college, promoted me twice and gave me tons of opportunities. I would probably not be here if not for him. So I remain loyal, as I will ever be.
That said, this Daily Beast piece from Peter misses the mark substantially. He argues that it’s a mistake for Obama to provide a timetable for ending the war, calling it “an effort to appease the doves in his party.” Why’s it a mistake? Because it’ll reduce American leverage, Peter argues: “After decades of anarchy and war, Afghans have learned that survival requires backing the side that’s likely to win.” Ultimately, Peter says, providing a timeline for concluding the war successfully is “all too clever by half.”
The Iraq experience is instructive in this regard. In 2006, the Bush administration doubled down militarily with the surge. Then, once America’s increased military commitment (along with other factors) had strengthened Iraq’s government, the Bushies appeased nationalist hostility by setting a timetable for withdrawal.
But Peter’s argument is cleverer than it is wise. For one thing, by most accounts that have leaked so far, the exit strategy that’s going to be in the speech will look like this, as an anonymous official told the NYT:
“It’s accurate to say that he will be more explicit about both goals and time frame than has been the case before and than has been part of the public discussion,” said a senior official, who requested anonymity to discuss the speech before it is delivered. “He wants to give a clear sense of both the time frame for action and how the war will eventually wind down.”
So not really a timetable — David Dayen finds this more problematic than I do — and more like a time horizon. Congratulations, Peter, you’ve won the day! More seriously, I will put money on the proposition that the ultimate exit of U.S. military forces is conditioned on the readiness of the Afghan Army and police. Basically, what Peter uses as a cudgel to contrast with his expectations of Obama’s Afghanistan approach.
More substantively still, Peter is conflating two different things: military commitment and political commitment. If we leave Afghanistan at some point and yank away our political commitment wholesale — meaning diplomatic engagement, economic ties, and regional sponsorship — then, yeah, the whole thing will fail. (And, in fairness, Obama can be justly criticized for an approach to Iraq that looks too much like that.) But if we take away our military commitment after beating the shit out of the Taliban and sustain that political commitment, then that looks like a sane and sustainable path to success. Contrariwise, if we have a primarily military relationship with Afghanistan without paying due regard to the development and governance and security root sources of Afghan active or passive support for the insurgency, then the mission is as hopeless as it is open-ended. And yet Peter doesn’t give any attention to that. He’s envisioning for a longer war without any regard for a successful one.
In fairness, that’s a mistake that pretty much everyone in Washington has made about Afghanistan since 2001. “Success” is instantiated as nothing more concrete than “keep fighting.” That’s an enormous error, and one that, with luck, Obama will correct tomorrow night.



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Sometimes I wish that the people on the two extremes of this fight could be put in a room together while the rest of us actually work on a viable solution. And do I need to invoke Chosin Reservoir to explain why simply “pulling out” is a lot harder than people think?
you know more than me, Spence, but for people who have had the shit beat out of them, the Taliban is pretty resilient, no?
Hey, were you on Rachel last week?
I heard someone arguing this last night; I want to say Frank Rich, but not sure. The position claimed that an exit strategy/timetable in the speech will indicate we are not really committed. My memory may fail on the name…
As long as you argue about how to keep up needless war.. ignoring all else.. i guess you all get your expensive bloody murderous ways.
Shame on you all.
well, hopefully we’re NOT really committed. For too many of these people “commitment” whether they say so or not, is open -ended. I’m glad if we don’t have that commitment.
Presuming facts not in evidence, namely that there is a “viable solution.”
Me?
Hinchey, U.S. rep from my mid-Hudson house, and a real progressive, sez W let OBL get away on purpose to help the rationalization for invading Iraq.
No, not you. I don’t see you playing footsie risk strategy sessions.
But these war pundits sure do… with no self awareness, no conscience, no remorse.
Frankly, I’d like to hear what Hamid Karzai would like. On television.
Well, I guess if you don’t have to define your objectives, don’t have to define “success” but instead view the object as proving you can stay there until no one is shooting at us for being there, then as long as you’re there it’s always on the road to a success. I don’t understand this conversation.
I have trouble buying the the notion that Bush was cognizant of anything. Neither Bush or Obama is a master of multi-dimensional chess.
I agree with Alan Grayson, or (rather) he agrees with me.
Troops
Home
Now
Big fat bribes, the bigger and more frequent, the better.
Why doesn’t the United States just buy all the poppies and make them into cheap painkillers which are desperately needed worldwide?
Too many people who wield a lot of influence on U.S. policy profit directly or indirectly from the narcotics trade.
We know W was planning to invade Iraq right from the beginning of his term. He didn’t have to have any complicated mental process to recognize that an at-large OBL helped his case.
Spencer, I’d like to know what you think failure and success look like in AfPak . . . . what are the GOALS for even BEING there, staying there, etc.?
And just WHO those successes or failures will most likely impact?
Hint: Oil, gas, drugs, distribution routes of same.
Surely you know the answer: U.S. phrma makes big bucks on their more complicated, less effective, more side effects painkillers.
But this is the kind of shocking revelation that makes David Shuster and Tamron Hall tut-tut like good little Villagers when Congressman Hinchey states the obvious on their wee programme. In Washington, such truthtelling is called a “gaffe.”
Too big a stretch. He had his mob lieutenants peddling yellowcake, aluminum tubes and mushroom clouds to a complicit media. He didn’t need OBL to sell the idea of invading Iraq.
One of the three legs of the Iraq case was the Connection between OBL & SH.
Heh.
Sorry, should read in my #18: “And just WHO do you think those successes or failures will most likely impact?”
unfortunately. Afghanistan appears to be a landlocked country. A small inconvenience, for American Will to Victory pays heed neither to prohibitive costs or other challenges.
what needs to be done is, dig a canal through Pakistan about 300 miles across, then get the US Navy to convert all its ships into tugboats, run cables and tie them onto some Afghan mountains and hills, and then rev the engines and tow the whole country around Cape Horn and dock it in the Gulf of Mexico, where we can then build Afghan civil society and chambers of commerce and better business bureaus and build malls with vast acres of parking and go about teaching them the Wonders of Democracy!
All else is an utter waste of time, for the country will one day revert to those who live there and the hubristic idiots of Empire will run out of will and/or money. The only question is how much money and human life will be utterly squandered in the meantime.
see also, Sunk Costs Fallacy.
LBJ and Bush, right there in the Skeptics Dictionary! Future editions can include Barack Obama, who pitched 35,000 more American soldiers into the Afghan quagmire.
I wonder what the war hawks are batting over the years? I’d guess they are hitting about .130 or so….
Yeah but that claim drew the most scrutiny and was considered the least plausible even at the time.
With a looming recession, the biggest impediment to the Bush/Cheney agenda at the start of his term was (likely) financial constraints imposed by Congress. OBL’s biggest contribution was 9/11, which gave the WH a blank check and license to do damn near anything they wanted.
More like they’re batting a thousand. The warmongers always have their way.
True. But if he’s just say that right out loud, we’d know. It would be hard to spin.
We’ll be going into the 2010 mid-term elections up to our ass in Afghanistan, with 15% unemployment, with GITMO still open, with a bunch of Goldman Sachs guys running the economy, with a halfass corporate-friendly healthcare bill in place, and the torture gang still running free. That’s a great recipe for Democratic electoral success, eh?
The Iranian journalist who was imprisoned for 118 days Iran is the guest on TDS.
watertiger is upstairs!
Late Night: Not Even If You Had 100 Monkeys in a Room, Typing…
I agree, and it seems to me the British did something like this a few years ago. I’ll see if I can find it.
one was WMDs. what was the third? should I look at the link?
They’ll have to go back to BEING the minority party, as opposed to merely acting like it.
The question of what to do about Afghanistan is an immensely complex one. Anyone who tries to offer a simple argument will come across as simplistic, and at this point that includes just about everybody. Obama’s task is an extraordinary challenge, and I am very interested to see how he will handle it.
This isn’t Vietnam, or Korea, or Iraq or WWII. It is its own difficulty, and will require its own set of solutions. Leaving early would be a mistake, as we will only ensure that the Taliban or something equally evil will be established with a perfectly predictable outcome that will be bad for everyone including ourselves. We can’t stay too long, as that will only serve to antagonize the very people we need to help as well as endanger our own domestic cohesion at a time when we need to be pulling together as a nation to solve a lot of other pressing problems made worse than they should be by 40 years of Reactionary Republican misrule.
Finding that one right path will not be easy, but I am persuaded that pressing the issue with force in concert with the re-engaged Pakistani military is the right immediate future course. At the same time we need to find a way to build up Afghani domestic infrastructure and policing capabilities to at least the level of Pakistan, so Afghanis can see a plausibly viable alternative to endless chaos. Then we need to get out. None of that will be simple, or quick, or painless.
Kudos to Beinart for recognizing talent when he sees it. May his reward be finding a better environment than the Beast in which to settle.
I guess I was thinking about the 2 legs of the WMD case: yellowcake & AL tubes. Oh, and there were the mobile bioagent labs.
The fact that the case was so simple, and the evidence so flakey was what the giveaway was to me.
Here.
“. . . ensure that the Taliban or something equally evil will be established with a perfectly predictable outcome that will be bad for everyone including ourselves.”
1) Afghan and it’s past and future are not ours to play with.
2) I defy you to present any credible evidence to substantiate the quote I lifted.
What a fine expression of the neocon creed. Your connection to Beinart suddenly becomes a lot more understandable.
uttering the word ‘solution’ does not a solution make.
Tomorrow, Obama will propose an escalation, just as he said he would during his campaign.
Will this be the one campaign pledge he will fulfill?
perhaps, a simple counter query to Obama apologists – why, again, is it worth squandering any more blood and treasure in Afganistan?
then, compare your answer with some of the serious problems here in the 50 states – could $5billion a month improve any of them?
I should add that Spencer like everyone else in Washington never enunciates what our policy is or should be in Afghanistan. Unsurprising, really because we don’t have one. So I can’t even ask the natural follow up which is do our policy objectives justify the multi-year commitment of lives and resources entailed?
It’s bad enough that we have Generals that know everything, neocons that know everything, Congress and Presidents that know eveything, and then there are just the people who like to push their opinions, because they think they know everything.
If we have all these people who know everthing. Why haven’t we won the Wars, solved all our problems, and made the world into what we want of it.
Could it be that none are really worth their salt?
yeah, punk rock Spencer likes to say shit like that, but not contemplate pictures like this.
kind of like with Thomas Friedman, that sort of macho talk and callous unconcern with the human consequences just reveals a sad psychology, in need of bit of care, maybe from a female, most of whom find such cases pathetic.
Neocon. Spencer?????? You’re out of line, Hugh. (much as I like your lists)
I would ask, just for reference – have any of you actually been to Afghanistan? Reported from the ground in Afghanistan? Know personally any of the players wrt Afghanistan? Show of hands, please.
Anyone?
Never been to Afghanistan. Served in the infantry in Vietnam, 1969-70.
Hey, I’ve got a great idea:
Let’s kill thousands of people, wound tens of thousands more, spend hundreds of billions we don’t have in pursuit of unrealistic goals no one before us has ever achieved and have more war, all the time.
Yes, that’s the ticket! More war, all the time!
It’ll keep us safe, for sure.
Can I haz preznit now?
Our future is ours to consider, and protect if we can. The world is now a very small place, and the interconnectedness of it all is something we would do well to consider more carefully than we have. Our future course in Afghanistan isn’t just about that poor awful country, but about what happens in Pakistan and with that India and the whole of he area. We, and it is we, have made a mess of the entire region. We, and there is no one else but we to do it, need to clean up our mess the best we can and leave the area better than it was when we blundered in. We need to do that for our own interests, if no one elses.
The quote you cite is a predicition; proof of the future is a handy trick, please show me how it is done. When we abandoned Afghanistan after the Soviet defeat, we created an environment that led directly to 9/11, as surely as our diminishment of Germany after WWI led directly to Hitler and the Third Reich. Stability in the region, and the security of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons, rests on establishing stability in Pakistan and that depends on stability in neighboring Afghanistan. We would be fools to try to do less.
here’s a strong take by a brave Afghan woman.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23943.htm
Failing to pursue a solution guarantees failure. Your choice as to what you advocate for, of course.
Those who have nothing to offer but negativism often try to change the subgect to other matters, as you do here. I’d be happy to discuss a more global assessment of Obama’s conduct thusfar, but not here; this is a thread about Afghanistan, a large enough topic all on its own.
As to a justification, see above at 49. Abbreviated, but I’m sure you can catch the drift.
And I am hardly an “apologist” for Obama; he’s a big boy and can defend himself. My opinions on what is needed in Afghanistan and Pakistan long predate Obama’s coming on the scene; perhaps you should view him as an apologist for me.
The first thing one must do is to ignore idiots like Beinart and luckily the vast majority of people generally do. This guy carries no weight and has nothing to offer. If you asked 100 people at random who he is maybe 1 would know him, and deservedly so.
I heard him speak once and he came across as this loathesome wimp carrying on about the right the US has to exercise power freely in self defense against Saddam Hussein. All well and good but as things turned out it should have been Hussein that should have taken action against the US for his own self defense.
In Afghanistan the then Taliban governmant was directly threatened by the US and given an ultimatum including force if it did not aquiesce and grant the US access to Caspian sea natural gas and oil. Well they did nothing in self defense and when Al Qaeda attacked the US for their own reasons the Taliban offerred to give him up and the US refused.
So the US has no justification for attacking the Taliban within Afghanistan, they have done nothing against the US. To chase of Al Qaeda in hot pursuit in retailation may have been justified 8 years ago, but that rationale no longer applies, 8 years of hot pursuit is simply too long.
Aside from this pretext, the US has no other business in Afghanistan, neither to interfere in their domestic affairs nor to offer its help in any other way, if not solicited. They certainly have no right to keep US troops there if their presence is not requested. Every country has the legal right to be left alone and any argument to the contrary is baseless.
In this regard one can point to the Russian military presence in Afghnaistan. In this case the Afghan government actually invited them in.
I have.
Eh. I can take it. But thanks.
Try this on for size. I wrote it before your comment.