Although our intelligence community had learned a great deal about the al Qaeda affiliate in Yemen — called al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula — that we knew that they sought to strike the United States and that they were recruiting operatives to do so — the intelligence community did not aggressively follow up on and prioritize particular streams of intelligence related to a possible attack against the homeland… this contributed to a larger failure of analysis —- a failure to connect the dots of intelligence that existed across our intelligence community and which, together, could have revealed that Abdulmutallab was planning an attack.
I’m stuck thinking that Obama’s conflating the proposition that there were sufficient dots to yield a picture of Dangerous Abdulmutallab with the proposition that there were sufficient dots to contextualize Abdulmutallab and require either further investigation. The first proposition is, I think, unfair to the intelligence community, because the major piece of data on Abdulmutallab is that his father told U.S. embassy officials in Abuja that he was potentially dangerous and might be in Yemen. As I’ve been reporting & writing for days, that’s just not enough information. But it is enough information to have set people investigating Abdulmutallab further, and maybe that would have gotten you something concrete enough to meet the specificity standards for getting him on the no-fly. Alas.
And here’s where it’s become unfortunate that mainstream political discourse has created negative connotations around a “law enforcement approach to terrorism.” I can guarantee you that if you said to someone, “Hey, do you think that in terrorism investigations, we should create the perspective amongst counterterrorists that their job doesn’t stop until someone is neutralized?” they would say “Yes.” Well, you goddamn hippie: you’ve got a law enforcement mindset. I guess people don’t understand this enough, but intelligence analysts approach their craft rather differently. They look for patterns in information, and pass those patterns up the chain. They do not investigate in the sense of the word that you and I understand from TV. That’s why there was no APB inside the CIA or the National Counterterrorism Center on Abdulmutallab after his father’s walk-in. Abdulmutallab, in the intelligence world, is a data point. He is not a suspect.
Now, if you had the FBI handling the Abdulmutallab portfolio, or people who think like FBI agents, maybe it still doesn’t go anywhere. But maybe they start compiling information and building a case and new information turns up and the guy gets yanked before he’s on the plane. I gather that’s what John Brennan meant when he said yesterday there was “no one intelligence entity or team or task force [that] was assigned responsibility for doing that follow-up investigation.” None of this is to say the FBI has to be given the lead for these sorts of things. A joint approach is the right approach if you want to see everyone’s information. But it is to say that within that joint entity, analysts need — wait for it — a law enforcement approach to terrorism.



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Although we hashed this out on Twitter, here is a more permanent look. You are saying that law enforcement techniques are helpful when looking for terrorists. I agree wholeheartedly, and they should all be playing nice together.
The failure of the LE model happens after we scarf up a bad guy. Look at Mutallab, he was talking up until we got him a lawyer, then he shut up. We may have learned something, but interrogation involves repeatedly asking the same things and comparing the answers and then checking against what we already know. Then you go back at him again, preferably after he has been awake, cold and hungry for a couple of days.
We have lost any ability to find out about the other bombers he talked about. And we are talking about offering a plea deal to get him talking again, that is insane.
Cordially,
Uncle J
A plea deal for good, solid info sounds sane to me. Plea deals and verifiability of info go pretty much hand in hand. Torture interrogations and just ‘getting someone talking’ about anything, to deal with their current circumstances – not so much.
IMO- not giving a stay-out-of-jail deal to a whistleblower like Birkenfeld is way less sane than giving a deal to get solid intel (something we don’t get very often) from Mutallab.
And if you want parents like Mutallab’s to keep thinking they can go to US authorities with concerns – you don’t abuse their children in custody. Otherwise, you shut down the very pipeline we should be thrilled we got in this instance (even if it was mishandled).
Yea, Spencer and Mary.
To uncle jimbo – I wouldn’t take that assumption, that he “lawyered up and stopped talking,” as fact. I have actually heard from some credible sources that he is in fact giving good intelligence, still, after having “lawyered up.”
There seems to be an assumption that lawyers will always keep their clients from talking, ever. This is not true, like Mary said, “a plea deal for good, solid info,” is much more likely to happen. Mutallab’s lawyer isn’t stupid – she knows, no info, no deal (or no good deal).
Also, what Mary said in her last graf.
Whether it’s Terrorism, Economics or Health Care, the Bipartisan approach is this…
Step 1: “Ooops! We fucked up!”
Step 2: “Surrender your rights.”
Step 3: “Give us more power/money.”
Step 4: “Don’t ask questions. It could be worse.”
Lather, rinse, repeat….
But, again, people get the Gov’t they earn.
I think both the military and law enforcement approaches are inappropriate. I think this is something like what happened with knights after the invention of gunpowder – the tools and methods simply didn’t work for the changing dynamics of the times. I neither see transnational terrorist organizations as state actors engaged in warfare nor do I see them like someone who robbed a liquor store as neither framework truly fits. Perhaps there should be a transnational court system to handle global terrorism that operates under a different set of rules and also establishes guidelines that police and military forces should use when pursuing, capturing and trying transnational terrorists.
I on one hand find the idea of a suicide bomber giving up valuable information in a plea bargain silly (if for no other reason than that those are usually underlings doing the dirty work and who don’t have much info because of their low rank and whatever valid info they have becomes outdated extremely quickly and would be useless by the time of a plea deal) while on the other hand I find the idea of indefinite detention based on transnational terrorist war to be a violation of human rights (terrorist wars have no clear end unlike wars between state actors, in which case I support detention of captured soldiers during the period of war where there can be a clear beginning to hostilities and clear cessation of hostilities).
Something needs to be done, but the LE model is just as flawed as the military model when dealing with transnational terrorists. I think there needs to be an updated Geneva Convention that deals with such things. I also think things like drones killing civilians need to have clear rules as part of an updated GC.
Perhaps your moniker holds the key to this new approach? lulz
Pray tell… what has really ‘changed’ that requires a new approach?
No critic of the “LE model” has stated specifically what is wrong with it.
Care to enlighten us?
Meanwhile, ponder what Helen Thomas asked repeatedly yesterday:
“What is their motive? You never answer that.”
I think al Queida has learned something they can’t get guns on a plane and that the passengers will attack hijackers. Maybe there will be one more attempt to hijack a plane but I expect it to fail. Al Quieda will have to try something else.
But what is the question.
And here’s where it’s become unfortunate that mainstream political discourse has created negative connotations around a “law enforcement approach to terrorism.”
___
One thing that cracks me up with these nit-picking semantics: We are episodically treated to Re’pu’ublicist Depends-peeing talking heads (and more frequently of late in the wake of the UndieBomber) loudly bemoaning that fact that these peeps are “Enemy Combatants” who should be dealt with via military tribunals.
What everyone idiotically leaves out by now is the full legal moniker “Unlawful Enemy Combatants.” The proper jurisdiction of military tribunals is that of LAWFUL enemy combatants, i.e, your adversaries’ soldiers in the historical / nation-state sense.
“Unlawful Enemy Combatants” are simply criminals, really.
Nice.
Pardon me, but isn’t a basic Boolean search allowed by foreign deck intel. types on potential/known terrorists? Abdulmutallab or Abdulm*(wildcard) and Visa and USA and Yemen or Al Qaeda and Airline or attack?
According to what I’ve read, Mutallab has been blabbering away. Who knows whether that’s true or not. So much of what we read is propaganda.
Why would a highly educated suicide bomber not talk? Why would he not know a lot? This particular individual had obviously thought a lot about foresaking his priviledged lifestyle, and there is some non-zero probability that he asked a lot of qs before commiting to it, and is eager to explain his motivation to others.
They don’t use Google.
;)
You want another approach fine the GM Volt
If we can sell a million of these cars we can drop the price of oil and cut Ossama’s funds from oil rich Arab countries. Dubai is not the only Arab country in financial trouble.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0503-22.htm
My bold We need a tax cut like this for the GM Volt to sell a million hummers next year with a tax cut like this GM could afford to charge more for lithium batteries which if we do sell a million Volts will cause the price of Lithium to go up.
Cut off Ossama’s cash and he’s just an old guy in a cave.
Can u say the War of terrorism is BS! BV$H created it so he could be a War time Dictator and so that it would bean endless war that would essentially destroy the Constitution. Obama ended the Use of the term and kept all the unconstitutional power. The Republic is dead long live the War on Terror! Are we still @ War with Eastasia?
If only they could train their agents to do their business in the restroom!
It’s always the little things, isn’t it?
Would forensics be able to determine if a colon bomb was used?
Will we have to submit to rectal exams if they do?
Or just make everyone eat Taco Bell a few hours before the flight to be on the safe side?
But, back to approaches…
The ‘Law Enforcement Approach’ hasn’t eradicated crime.
Perhaps we should ditch it altogether?
Thanks for yet another well written piece, Spencer.
Attempting to blow up a plane is a crime. Civilian criminal prosecution is not a job for the military.
There is an interesting factual, not sarcastic, Q about why he didn’t try to detonate in the bathroom, where no one would have noticed the flames until it was too late.
I think you’re very wrong. “Transnational” (i.e. ideological) gangs have been around a long long time. Did I mention “long” time? Whether they are white supremicist groups or anarchists or … they’ve been around. The LE model works perfectly fine when someone is caught plotting or engaged in illegal activity in connection with such a gang or an action taken individually but aligning withe the ideas of such a gang – nothing you’ve said in your comment would indicate that it doesn’t.
A LE model also reinforces the viability of the intel model to try to prevent potential actors from becoming viable. Good intel involve human intelligence sources – like the parents of Mutallab; like the parents of the kids in Pakistan right now. A model that would turn them into informants sending their friends and children into a lawless blackhole is going to kill the availability of good intel to “circumvent” a problem that doesn’t exist with the LE approach to – illegal behavior.
Your only real objection re: a law enforcement model is that you think it is “silly” to give a plea bargain to an underling who may not have much info (yeah – far better to coerce unreliable info from the uninformed, which seems to be the path you think should be open). Well, if that’s your concern (and Unc’s) I wouldn’t worry much. No one gets a good plea deal for bad info. And with all the time it takes to get to allocution and deal approval, there’s plenty of time to discover if the info given was good or not.
I read something about his being seated proximate to a fuel tank, with the thought being he’d ignite/detonate it and be sure to blow the plane out of the sky.
Here’s the Criminal Minds award for getting the info they wanted via making contact rather than torture. Fiction, but the way the idealized FBI has gotten many of their successes.
Yes, I’ve read quite a bit about TWA800 and Bojinka, and that would be my hypothesis. But I haven’t read that anywhere wrt undie bomber.
Does anyone know exactly what type of device he actually had? Don’t think I have seen it reported. Or maybe I just missed it.
I wasn’t being sarcastic… 100%.
But if it was big enough boom to penetrate to the fuel tank (as vegasboomer suggests), it would be big enough to penetrate the walls of the boom boom room and bring the plane down anyway.
Same thing with Richard Reid fumbling with matches in his seat.
Most ‘checked’ baggage is still unchecked for bombs.
Why not play the odds that way?
Just doesn’t make any sense.
Unless it’s all a sham.
Maybe Larry Craig could give the FBI some tips?
Airline stocks would really go in the toilet if we made passengers eat Taco Hell.
Its the best we got until we get some real peace in the middle east. I hear Obama might cut off Israel’s cash until they get peace if he gets a fair 2 state solution we won’t have to worry about hijackers but can we expect Obama to stand up to President Joe Lieberman?…better than he did on healthcare?
Oh, Mary you said it so much better than I did. Must be why I normally just lurk.
The TWA 800 and the Bojinka plots involved setting off a small explosion with materials that could be brought on board, on top of the fuel tanks, causing an much greater explosion, bringing down the whole plane. In those cases, it was a 747, and the passenger row in qestion was something like 25 or 27. The wet test, that happened in a flight out of Tokyo, was not quite accurately placed, and while it blasted a hole in the plane, and killed a couple of people, the pilot was able to fly it back to Tokyo & land it.
Don’t know any of those details about undie bomber. What type of aircraft? Where are the fuel tanks? Why try to detonate close to landing rather than close to takeoff when the fuel tanks would be a lot more lethal.
It seems we need two prongs for terrorism, one a “law enforcement approach” for the event itself.
For the before, I believe we need an approach as in “Three Cups of Tea” or as proposed in “Lions for Lambs”, a sort of culture sharing could head off quite a bit of irregular operations on several fronts. Respect and participation with another culture will entail some changes, something I feel, despite morons like Faux and Frauds, is waiting to be awakened within every American. Walking a mile in another’s shoes has always humbled me.
Until we realize that hiring CIA proxies to infiltrate other lands and cultures, we will only engender more violence. It is inevitable.
Great commentary and followup discussion, Mr. Ackerman.
There is no such thing as a militant group named Al Qaeda. Come on people, use your heads. When did anyone ever hear of Al Qaeda, before the Bushies started spouting them as a convenient blame for 9/11?? Anyone? It doesn’t exist. Sure there are probably militant groups of angry mideasterners, but they don’t call themselves Al Qaeda, and they never did, and they don’t have an Al Qaeda head office. Anymore than the stories about those caves in Afghanistan that were all high tech like office buildings. Did they ever find them? No. Why? Because they don’t exist!!!!!!!! Someday maybe, Americans and the world will refuse to listen/believe this line of BS boogeyman claptrap. Be afraid. We are protecting you by killing all those innocent kids that threaten your safety.
And here I was thinking you said it better – to the point and without typos.
Well, there was that OBL unit at CIA, pre-W. (Sounds like one of the female members was one of the CIA agents who got killed in Khost, but I’m putting 2 ‘n 2 together. Didn’t read that anywhere.) And there were those Clinton missile launched against AQ. And there are quite a few non-USG authors who wrote about AQ. I suppose it could be an elaborate USG plot, but I just don’t think the USG is capable enough to do that.
Well i’d say that failing to connect dots is because they’re mostly just dots until they’re connected after the fact. There is simply no way, LE technique or otherwise, that all available information can be analyzed in a time frame that will work.
And that doesn’t even count how easy it would be for a transnational organization to throw dots into the mix for the sake of disinformation.
I’ve come to the conclusion that everything we’re doing is an attempt to treat symptoms rather than cure the disease. Granted, we’re not going to cure the disease with massive defense budgets and foreign wars so i don’t hold out much hope for a diagnosis of the disease, much less treatment.
There’s too much information out there showing our vaunted intelligence agencies to be/have played both sides of the game. Many of the places that real dot connecting would lead are going to be embarrassing if not treasonous and illegal. If dots like CIA involvement in the drug trade, etc. are left out for the sake of appearances, we’re not going to get a useful picture anyhow.
Besides, nobody in government wants the War on Terror to end (or be won)…at least not the people who count. It’s the best thing that’s happened to them since the Cold War ended.
This says you need 50 grams to blow a hole in the side of a plane:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/northwest-airlines-flight-253-bomb-photos-exclusive/story?id=9436297
Why not detonate it over the ocean making reaching land difficult if not impossible?
In response to canadianbeaver @ 28:
What?! You don’t believe in Emmanuel Goldstein?
You must be one of those poo-poo’ers who believe in ‘Operation Northwoods.’
As someone said regarding that the other day, “Well, they never carried that out in 60′s, did they?”
And they are right. Kennedy put a stop to it.
Whatever happened to him, anyway?
Was TWA 800 a terrorist “attack”?
IANAS, but according to the Bojinka wet test, blowing a hole in the side of a plane does not necessarily bring it down. But your Q about detonating over the ocean, coupled with mine about detonating while the fuel tanks are full, are certainly unanswered Qs.
lotsa verbiage on this page, but like oldnslow’s comment. what is the problem with this?
Law enforcement answer to terroism seems much more thoughtful than say
Joe Lieberman’s ideas re. crotch fire guy,” We gotta’ bomb Yemen. Bomb Yemen.If we are soft on terroism we’ll be overrun with terroists. Bomb Yemen.”
Depends on who you ask. According to Pat Milton’s In The Blink of an Eye, it was an odd spark in the fuel tank. She was the AP reporter who covered it initially and who followed up every jot & tittle afterward to write her book. It comports with the official account.
However, according to Peter Lance in Cover Up, it was another Bojinka wet test. Among other interesting items in that account (including tail numbers of aircraft being changed), the USG cover up occured because they allowed Ramzy Youssef to get info out of jail thru an undercover agent who was supposed to be getting mafia info. Jamie whatsername, 9/11 commission, was the one who stopped the investigation when it got to the point where the Youssef connection might have come out. She was in Clinton’s DOJ.
Anyhow, read both books & decide for yourself. I thought Lance made more sense, only because with all the 747 flights, why did only TWA 800 explode. Made no sense, and Lance’s digging put together a more credible picture.
I agree. After we rounded up and tortured a bunch of Muslims..raped their children where they could hear the screams (for valuable information)…then let quite a few out on the streets …..bombed a country to smitherines….You got your Al Quaeda.
Some would say it is a common sense approach to US terroism.CIA = biggest terroists in the world.
Walking a mile in another’s shoes has always humbled me.
As much as I am struck over the problems and deficits that have been demonstrated in our intel community’s inability to incorporate cultural & language & religious & tribal factors in our “hotspot” areas, sometimes I am even more stuck (stricken you might say) by our inability to incorporate even a minimal, baseline amount of empathy that would not need cultural training into our intel analysis.
OK – so we have language and cultural issues, but how about sitting down and thinking through how Americans would feel and what they would do if faced with some of the issues presenting in the lands we are occupying or from which threats are emanating. Lay out the poverty; the corrupt gov; the foreign support of corrupt gov; the foreign supporters of corrupt gov occupying and claiming to be able to divest everyone of any right to be free from groundless detention and abuse; the de facto “orphanizing” of children of the detained and the de jure orphans from the activities of the occupiers; etc.
Sure there are cultural and religious issues – tenets of occupation of Muslim lands, little things like hand signals to stop vs to come here being so different as to cause checkpoint tragedies, etc – but I have to believe that intel analysis and America’s understanding of whether its actions are making things better or worse would be greatly improved by just simply engaging in a small amount of “if I were an Afghan (or Iraqi, or, for that matter, since we are “global” inour war, a Muslim anywhere) who was not involved in 9/11 or supporting al-Qaeda in 2001, how would I feel now based on what actions have been taken?
Just look at the policies and actions and imagine them being imposed, after these many years of occupation, by another much more powerful country – perhaps a Muslim country, on us. To do that, though, you have to do what Obama is just as resistant to as Bush was – you have to be honest and open about what the actions and policies are and have been. If you’ve been propping up a corrupt gov, taking sides in drug wars, setting up Abu Ghraibs and Bagrams for depraved perpetual detentions of tens of thousands, and leaving people in the hands of soldiers who have been initially propagandized into thinking all Afghans and Iraqis are potential unlawful enemy combatants who were involved in 9/11 and for whom there are no restraints on what can be done – - then follow up that propagandizing with the soldiers real world experiences of losing friends or being attacked, over and over, from difficult to identify and specify but easy to conflate and bomb persons, what do you set up a but a fail?
If you aren’t bringing something to the table, like a Three Cups of Tea situation (compare and contrast the story in that book and its follow up to the ones told here
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/116512/
by Ann Jones re: the road the US “helped” the Afghans with.
IOKIYCIA
How about a foreign policy based on diplomacy rather than military funding which did not stoke up anger in the regions that are the source of asymmetrical warriors?
If the US ceased funding a nuclear Israel as it commits war crimes against the Palestinian people and ceased supporting dictators in the region, like Mubarak or Saddam Hussein or “Shah” Reza Pahlavi or Musharraf, who keep populations living in squalor so that we might get their petroleum on the cheap to facilitate our lives of convenience.
When our convenience is predicated upon the slow death of people’s toddlers, they fight back. If it were us on the receiving end of our foreign policy, terrorism would be lauded as a sacrament.
But if government policy were designed to treat problems rather than symptoms, there would not be a cottage industry of terrorism consultants or terrorism experts, many of whom seem about as credible as your garden variety assassination conspiracy theorist.
I agree with you, but have observed that empathy is a dirty word in the U.S.
More objectively, my hypothesis is that it is impossible for empires, qua empires, to put themselves in other people’s shoes. It’s so obvious that the empire is right and the occupied are wrong, that the thought experiment you suggest, imagine a country occupying the U.S. and soldiers ordering you around in a language you don’t understand, is an out of the imagination of the PTB in an empire. It’s so obvious (might makes right, dontcha know) that the empire is right that no discussion is necessary.
BTW, midtown Manhattan during the 2004 R convention was very much military occupation (no tanks, though), so I can easily put myself in their place.
Ah yes, another list of hortatories. U.S. shoulda, coulda, woulda, the 3 most useless words in the English language.
U.S. doesn’t do what you suggest because U.S. is all powerful & can do whatever it wants. Gotta big military and a vestigal State Dept., so what do you think will happen?
Any one yet really determined whether he actually had enough explosive to blow a big enough hole in the plane to bring it down? I think that is a really reasonable question. Further, as to someone securing explosive material in his/her rectum, how are they going to detonate without something external?
Another good q, to add to the ones about detonating over the ocean, not the land, detonating with full fuel tanks. As for your q, the Bojinka model was to bring on a little explosive, enough to blow thru the fuel tank, which would explose the whole plane.
If they’re going to do what they’re going to do, progressives do ourselves a disservice by legitimating their framing and operating within it as if it were normative and not criminal. Participating in making the criminal normative aids and abets the criminal and is criminal in itself.
Why can we name Pharma, Insurers and the Blue Dogs when we advocate progressive positions in the health care debate, but when it comes to asymmetrical attacks against us, all of a sudden the root causes of the problem are off the table simply because AIPAC says they must be.
No doubt that not attacking U.S. foreign policy as evil means you are part of the problem. Two examples in the last 24 hours of how U.S.ians refused to acknowledge that U.S. attacks on others were responsible for others’ attacks on U.S. Simply mind-boggling but illustrating the phenomenon. One example was a panel of VSPs on Afghanistan, including a Brookings guy who advised O during the transition, who is absolutely nuts. Thinks the U.S. not only has to do nation building in Afghanistan, but region building, including Pakistan. I’ve forgotten the second, equally absurd, example.
The TWA #800 mention reminded me of a documentary I saw once. The theory was that a spark originating at a fuel level sensor inside a main fuel tank ignited the fuel vapor, resulting in the catastrophic explosion. I suppose the emptier the fuel tanks are of fuel, the fuller they are of fuel vapor. Which I suppose might be even more volatile than the fuel itself. Might help explain the why-at-landing part of the plan. That plus the on-the-populated-ground damage.
How dismal to have be analyzing this.
We all know what happens when peoples’ hopes are raised, both at home and abroad, and for all of that work, then end up with something that is the same as or worse than what came before.
Not only will Obama have trashed the joint for future progressive contenders at home, but will also have made so many more enemies abroad, direct enemies who hate us for killing their families and neighbors instead of their second cousins twice removed over in Palestine or Iraq.
“I think you’re very wrong. ‘Transnational’ (i.e. ideological) gangs have been around a long long time”
Transnational is not a synonym for ideological. The KKK for instance was a domestic organization in response to Reconstruction. The FBI did well on that ideological (but not transnational) gang.
“Your only real objection re: a law enforcement model is that you think it is “silly” to give a plea bargain to an underling who may not have much info (yeah – far better to coerce unreliable info from the uninformed, which seems to be the path you think should be open). Well, if that’s your concern (and Unc’s) I wouldn’t worry much. No one gets a good plea deal for bad info. And with all the time it takes to get to allocution and deal approval, there’s plenty of time to discover if the info given was good or not.”
No, that is not my only real objection. FBI agents who work domestically are trained in law enforcement while our soldiers (short of MPs and it’s not the MPs who are going after terrorists) are not. There aren’t 100,000s of FBI agents fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq, but soldiers and even UN Peacekeepers are still soldiers not cops. I’m saying there needs to be some combination between the LE model and the military model because the FBI isn’t running Afghanistan but the military isn’t a fighting a traditional war against state actors. I don’t see what is so objectionable about having something like the International Criminal Court (or expanding the ICC) to deal with transnational terrorists as well as to set guidelines. A soldier in Afghanistan cannot compare to an FBI agent as they are two completely different things, but international standards could be set for how the military conducts itself when engaging non-state actors. The Geneva Conventions do do some of that, but they are outdated since in the past non-state actors have been secondary while now it is the non-state actors who are the primary focus and as such states fight differently and issues like indefinite detention come up because these types of fights are endless.
There are just so many things that the military does different than law enforcement, like signals intercepts. The military doesn’t need a court order to engage in SIGINT when pursuing terrorists in Afghanistan unlike the FBI wanting to wiretap someone in the US, so expecting the military to have acted like the FBI just doesn’t jibe as the military chain of evidence when in combat is waaaaay different than domestic law enforcement actions as their purposes are way different. There has to be something out there that can be compatible with the military (who again aren’t FBI agents highly trained in law enforcement procedures) but at the same time recognizes the LE aspects of transnational terrorists by not allowing indefinite detentions.
“Not only will Obama have trashed the joint for future progressive contenders at home, but will also have made so many more enemies abroad, direct enemies who hate us for killing their families and neighbors instead of their second cousins twice removed over in Palestine or Iraq.”
I think the news media has been doing a huge disservice when it comes to reporting the drone strikes and has been doing so for a decade or more. People here don’t seem to understand why so many in the Middle East hate us and how we are still re-enforcing their hate even though we have a new President. The media in the West totally glosses over all the civilian casualties while the media in the ME of course talks about all the civilians killed and who did the killing. I think the differences in media reporting resulting in a kind of racism/elitism where to those in the West that there are a bunch of crazy people in the ME who should be happy with the US while at the same time Western policy drives ME hatred.
Looking at what happened with My Lai in Vietnam that was a huge black mark when the Western media found out about it, but yet there’s been hundreds of mini-My Lais with the drone strikes where instead the Western media serves as a cheer squad and just glosses over the civilian casualties and there isn’t even a question of having a serious investigation into civilian deaths. All that happens is that people hate us for killing innocent civilians and it results in the West creating radicals who want to avenge all the innocent people killed.
Where does hiding amongst civilians fit in here? If you know you are on the enemy’s hit list, does it make sense to ride around in a car with your wife and kids, or stay at home with them? Where does Al Qaeda or Taliban blowing up civilians count in here?
Also, vapors are what ignite, not the fuel itself, so tanks less full are more vulnerable. For the explosion to have reached fuel, it would have had to penetrate several layers down to get the central fuel tank, or powerful enough to have torn through the skin and into a wing tank. That’s a pretty big explosion. So, the question still stands; was there enough explosive to have really taken the jet down?
Actually, I have a cousin who is a senior engineer on the Dreamliner program, and I will put the question to him and get back to you.
I am not on the side of Military Commissions, nor on the side of Law Inforcement.
Neither has worked well in the past, and leaves to the assumption that we have law, and we could trust our Military.
We let O J and Durst Go with our fabulous Law, and the Military Commissions have left us with Gimo full of Terrorists.
Something that only works alittle or part of the time cannot be considered good, or give anyone confidence.
OJ was innocent.
Attackerman, you nailed this. Obama just has this wrong. it’s not “the intelligence community”‘s job to keep people off airplanes. It’s their job to provide State, the TSA, and other security agencies the information necessary to decide who gets kept off airplanes. This is just another way we (and far too often, they themselves, let’s be clear) aggrandize the job of “intelligence” in security policy, fail to keep our expectations of the range of its service product in line with the core mission of the enterprise (which Spencer accurately describes).
Quit Spinning Out Spence. Here’s the deal. Forget about all “intellegence gathering”. Let the al Queda and localized affiliates do what they want. So they blow up a plane or two. Just let them get it out of their systems. Soon they will see that we don’t care and they will just stop and then come to America to join the Capitalistic nonsense.
That said, I think we clearly don’t and won’t for a long time have a law-enforcement approach to terrorism, and that’s fine. It’s hybrid, or even its own thing. We ought to use all the legal means available to us to prevent major terrorist strikes. There’s no reason we need to react to the Right’s insanity with a pro-law-enforcement-approach agenda unless we really think that exclusively is the best agenda to have. I don’t. What we need is a stopping-terrorism approach to terrorism. And as much as it should probably focus more on preventing crime than it does, in fact our law-enforcement approach to law enforcement doesn’t focus anything like enough on preventing crime to actually serve alone as a workable model for an approach to pursuing what we (at least I) think we have to have with regard to terrorism )that is,after 9/11 caused us to rethink what is at stake in that word’s most modern implications): a zero-incidence objective, albeit one that comprehends that that is not an actually achievable standard indefinitely. (An understanding that utter permanent perfection in a goal is not impossible does not imply actual tolerance for that inevitable failure.) But having that as the nominal goal is a fundamental feature of the policy requirements around terrorism that distinguishes it from the policy parameters that characterize law-enforcement, and so I think because the objectives do not align, it is clear that, while clearly myriad law-enforcement methods are vital in a comprehensive counterterrorism approach in a modern Western democracy, a distinctly law-enforcement approach alone is clearly an insufficient paradigm for that enterprise.
“An understanding that … perfection in a goal is not impossible does not imply actual tolerance for th[e] inevitable failure.”
That is, of course, supposed to read, “…not possible…”
“Let the al Queda[sic] and localized affiliates do what they want. So they blow up a plane or two. Just let them get it out of their systems.”
No. I refuse.
Listen to Lt. Colonel Anthony Schaffer yesterday:
http://www.infowars.com/lt-col-anthony-shaffer-interviewed-on-the-alex-jones-show/
Did either of your sources mention the National Guard exercise out of Otis that was going on at the same time? That fighters were preforming an exercise firing dud missiles at a towed target. At least, one missile lost tracking on the target and was in a great position to re-acquire another, 800 being within the target acquisition window, albeit at the extremes?
Yet another possibility.
In the next-to-last-segment of the video(s) posted at the link at #61, it is revealed that the Millenium Bombing Report that Sandy Berger saw fit to steal from the National Archives included a revelation that AlCIAda cells were active in the US on Clinton’s watch – the same cells that allegedly pulled off 9/11 – per the words of an Able Danger Operative.
The names of the Presidents change, but the agenda run by the actual (Shadow) government remains constant. When you see Hal Turner – admitted to be an FBI National Security Intelligence Agent – the extent of the ruse becomes apparent. Propaganda is alleged to be illegal.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/hal-turner-is-a-%E2%80%9Cnational-security-intelligence%E2%80%9D-asset.html
Connect All The Dots here.
To uncle jimbo – I wouldn’t take that assumption, that he “lawyered up and stopped talking,” as fact. I have actually heard from some credible sources that he is in fact giving good intelligence, still, after having “lawyered up.”
I’m a criminal lawyer, and I can tell you right now that “lawyering up” does not automatically lead to “clamming up”, especially in a situation like this one where the defendant was caught, almost literally, red-handed. I was sitting around a table the other day with a mixed group of lawyers and cops (yes, it does happen when you’re waiting for your cases to be called), and the consensus among the lawyers was that, in Abdulmutallab’s situation, we’d most likely advise the client that the only way to avoid getting maxed out in this situation would be to cooperate.
In contrast, if the defendant’s alone, with the last advice he’s been given being “hold out till death,” you’re less likely to get him to spill.
A. Transnational is the subset, ideological is the superset, domestic ideological would be another subset. The KKK, btw, still exists. Using a “war on” approach would mean that civil liberties suspended in connection with that “war” would still be suspended. One reason the stayed “domestic” is that it was dealt with domestically. With respect to “islamic fundamentalists” or “jihadis” or “takfiris” or whatever ideological umbrella we are currently using to include the al-Qaeda subset, we are requiring that they be dealt with internationally and as a result are taking many groups/entities that are/were domestic and targeting them in a way that places them, rightly or wrongly, on an “International Terrorist” list that has little or no application.
So a domestic KKK group would, using a similar approach, be deemed to “be” an international terrorist group if there is an international neo-nazi movement and they have affinities and overlaps and sympathies. A KKK member emails an neo nazi and suddenly the KKK is an “international terrorist organization” and we are “at war” with them. This is exactly what has been done on the Islamic ideology groups/al-Qaeda/”Global” war on terror.
OK – but it’s the one you stated and you stated it in connection with a guy who was in Nigeria, Yemen, Amsterdam and the US – none of which are places were US soldiers are operative.
A. Our FBI agens work internationally and have for decades.
B. Soldiers in countries as an occupying force – which is what we basically are, or as a “support force” for local sovereignty – are bound under the laws of war to be operating under a police powers approach. Yes Virginia, there is already a model for how they should have been and should be operating, it’s just that we have chosen to violate even the laws of war that would require a significant shift in how soldiers are used in an occupation/support to sovereignty role. All the many prisons (not POW camps) operated by the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan have been in violation of Geneva conventions and international laws of WAR (not just law enforcement protocols) for years. So here’s a start point – follow the actual laws of war and if you want military commissions, hold them for the US war criminals under the same standards. But even under those laws and approaches, most of those held by the military should never have been held by them and should be prosecuted using domestic law (even though captured by occupying forces) and our targeted assassination programs as occupying forces are illegal. There are required “fair tribunal” (not military commission” combatant status hearings for non-uniformed detainees held by occupying forces under the Geneva conventions that have never been complied with. My father headed an occupation unit in Japan – trust me, they weren’t allowed to go do mass round ups and strip and stacks and engage in child abuse and roustings and long term detentions etc. Surprise surprise – we can call it a “war” all we want, but when we are in a country with whom we are not in a declared war as a support force or an occupying force – you are operating, under the laws of war, on a very differnt footing than the one we have adopted. We’ve operated for years now in violation of the laws of war, so it makes it kind of ludicrous to call for a “modified” LE and military approach when our existing military approach is and has been illegal.
Fair point – but it has nothing to do with the undies bomber you were originally commenting on and is inapplicable to that comment. He wasn’t in Afghanistan or Iraq and wasn’t taken into custody by soldiers in those theatres. And on the “still soldiers, not cops” comment, see above on the laws of war for occupiers and support forces. Soldiers (as opposed to the more recent US military shift to glorifying being “warrirors” instead of soldiers, as if soldier was a lesser – not higher – calling) absolutely should be able to play more than one role and that’s been true since the times of treaties and occupations and SOFAs etc. – iow, a long time. Soldiers providing relief after a tsunami aren’t aid workers either – they’re soldiers. But soldiers who are not operating in a role where they are out bombing civilian homes.
There is already a combination. The military is being used and for military situations, the military model can apply. But keep in mind, we haven’t been following the military model even in our combat theatres. That’s why we have so many problems and issues. Bush, Yoo and now Obama aren’t trying to follow a military model, they are saying that if they call something a military situation – then they don’t have to follow any rules. This gets lost in the shuffle quite a bit, but military “commissions” as opposed to military trials are two very different things. Too long to go into here, in an already too long comment, but commissions are in essence lawless proceedings. Military trials are proceedings that will provide a defendant quite a few defenses and protections (compare and contrast, for example, the “punishments” of the soldiers who tortured Dilawar to death or killed toddlers in their mothers arms in Haditha vs. a bipolar London chef named Errachidi who *resided* for awhile at GITMO under our illegal -under laws of war, not just le models – detention/torture regime there) but are targeted for military members – iow, targeted to allow for the PRIVILEGE TO KILL that accompanies war. Civilian courts do not and will not afford that privilege outside of an appropriate law enforcement model, but if you want a “military” approach, then it must allow for it and under that approach, non-uniformed residents of a nation who are fighting against occupying forces have the same privilege to kill that soldiers have.
There isn’t anything objectionable about it, but that is a LE approach, not a “modified” approach. And the reason we can’t have the ICC dealing with this is bc the US refuses to participate in the ICC (because it doesn’t want its nationals, like a Bush or a Cheney, to be subject to charges that might be filed there).
I think the military already has those standards. It has standards for how it should handle non-uniformed domestics who rise up against a foreign occupying force – those standards can be used in confrontations and with respect to dealing with domestic actors – and most of what the military is dealing with in Iraq and Afghanistan are people who are responding to their local presence, even though there are significant Muslims from other nations who are seeping through, like John Birchers, to join the insurgency. Still, you handle those people like non-uniformed combatants which is very different than how you handle members of a foreign military who have abandoned their uniforms. This is not an unknonw situation in conflicts and there is a wealth of the laws of war (including the Geneva Conventions) that deal with how soldiers handle the resident population that hate having them there.
Still, none of that does much with respect to your original comment on the undies bomber (not Iraqi and Afghan combatants) and it doesn’t address the issue of the entities that are planning crimes across the world (as opposed to responding violently to the uniformed occupation of their homes or Muslim lands by non-Muslims). It also doesn’t address the fact that in Afghanistan in particular, the US forces have been and are being used to fight proxy battles between competing drug lord factions; or that in Iraq US soldiers were used to allow for cordoning off of areas to allow for segmented ethnic and religious cleansing efforts (and are now mostly responsbile for a couple of million refugees who aren’t going to be repatriated anytime soon). So sure, there are lots of issue out there. Many have already available “solutions” in the existing laws of war and le models, though. The lack has not been a lack of solutions, it’s been a lack of US commitment to following EITHER domestic civilian laws OR domestic and international military law.
No, the GCs are not outdated. There have been these kinds of non-state actors forever. What has made a difference is that the lawless response and amorphous declaration of a “global war on terror” and the abandonment of the GCs in our conduct of that war have resulted in a huge wave of resentment against our criminal actions, that have made many many unlikely sources now willing to strike at that US. You are falling into the trap of thinking that most of those detained in those forever detentions had some combat connection. They didn’t. At GITMO, they were collected from around the world, sold in human trafficking transactions and used for human experimentation. In many of the detention facilities in Afghanistan and Iraq, they were taken in sweeps and home invasions based on no or incorrect intel and they were never afforded the kinds of hearings and reviews that the GC would have requried for them to obtain their freedom. This kind of forever, groundless detention of non-combatants has been and continues to be one of the main issues with not only the Muslim world, but with our “allies” (who are using the ICC and who would look at some of what we have done as criminal)
You betcha that you can take combatants and hold them as POWS in detention facilities. That’s not unclear under the laws of war at all. What you can’t do is go around picking up anyone you want, anywhere in the world, and shipping them to any black sites for torture. You can’t ship “protected persons” out of country at all – that was a response to things like the boxcar shipments of Jewish civilians across borders to their death or abuse, but had been around for longer, as the concept of taking people out of country for abuse had been around for a long time as well. That’s why every innocent person held at GITMO would be a significan war crime under the GCs.
I gotta go and this is too long already, but we don’t have many holes. The military isn’t supposed to engage in SIGINT domestically and guess what – under even the old FISA, the FBI as well as CIA could engage in all kinds of foreign surveillance without a warrant (just an AG ok) or with a FISCt order if the surveillance involved domestics and they can pick up wave signals too (like handset signals). The FBI if it were operating in Afghanistan and pursuing signals wouldn’t need a warrant either, but the FBI and military both have the issue of what to do with those signals when the person goes over the boarder into Pakistan. No one has ever expected the military to act like the FBI in a military situation (and btw, paying off Macedonians to hand over a German named el-Masri for fun and games isn’t a military situation)
Again- keep in mind that if we declared “war” on white supremicist radicals, we’d still be at it now and this country would be a “battlefield” bc even the KKK that you think is taken care of pretty much still exists. Islamic fundamentalists will always exist (and will propagate under a lawless occupation) Having lived a lawless approach to these problems for years (and expanding that lawless approach now under Obama) we can’t whine that “law” doesn’t solve the problems. We have never bothered to follow law – civilian law OR military law – to see. What we’ve done is create huge problems by being lawless criminals and then saying, “golly, those problems we created by refusing to follow law now are big and hard, so — let’s not follow civilian and military law to solve them either” It’s an LOL cats, ‘kthnxbai approach and it’s doomed to create more problems.
Russian Mafia made the hit
Andrew Bacevich has said as much. But I am sure the Zazi investigation in NY raised huge questions about the very public mistakes made by NYPD detectives.
Here’s a piece that I found compelling. [warning: pdf loads slowly] And while I am not a fan of the Manhattan Institute, they deserve credit for deploying an exceptional strategy for the Federales who have been slow to train, inform, and recruit local LEO’s for counterterrorism when it’s really a policing problem.
Fundamental tenet of Terrorism: Work between the seams of Law Enforcement and Foreign Policy. Like a serial killer who does each killing in a different state; It took longer to catch him.
The 9/11 plotters took advantage of the separation between the FBI and the CIA. Same process.
LE would not have pushed the Taliban out of Kabul. But in this case it looks like an Interpol approach would have been helpful.
Counter-insurgency crosses the same boundary from the other side: Soldiers learning to be, essentially, cops who protect the people.
There is a great deal of self-(regard+pity) in this piece, and one very, very unfortunate paragraph (release of the memos was a partisan act? They were under court order, Mr. Grenier!). And I don’t really know where this guy’s reputation stands him among civil-liberties watchers and progressives relative to other spooks of his era. But I do think there is a kernel of sense in this varied (even sprawling), textured, and clearly heartfelt piece by a veteran of the most troubled part of our country’s troubled intelligence history, and it is this:
Quite.