Let me start off by saying I don’t hold any particular brief for Scott Horton, although I was impressed with his recent Harper’s report into some dubious 2006 suicides at Guantanamo Bay. But Jack Shafer’s attempt at refuting Horton is unpersuasive. This, for instance:
[I]f you were going to torture prisoners to the point of death in interrogations, would you really draw three prisoners from the same cell block, inside the same hour, for that punishment? It would make more sense to torture one to death, cover up that murder, and after a decent interval proceed with the gained information to torture the second prisoner to death.
That assumes way too much rationality, I think we can all agree. If you’re killing detainees, maybe you’re not thinking everything through, and maybe the long history of impunity at Guantanamo — beatings, prolonged isolation, etc — on some level you don’t think you need to think everything through. Shafer also assumes that interrogations were ongoing in July 2006, despite the lack of influx of new detainees and the near-halt to interrogation operations by 2005. (You can read pieces in the New Yorker by Jane Mayer in July 2005 and me in TNR in August 2005 for more on that.) In fairness, Horton suggests that the possibly-concealed detention facility he dubs “Camp No” (after what his sources say their shorthand for the thing-that-might-have-been was) might have been used for interrogations as well, possibly on the June 9 timeline, and that should have jumped out at me earlier as dubious.
I’m not saying the thing happened the way Horton said it did, because I don’t know. I’ve interviewed guards at Guantanamo and heard their frustrations, to the point where I was kind of shocked there weren’t more severe beatings at the hands of 19 year olds who have cocktails of excrement thrown at them. Obviously I’m not excusing any such beatings; I’m just saying that when someone is given responsibility over other people in an environment of legal impunity, standards of acceptable behavior can slip very fast. That’s just human nature.
Shafer also premises his piece on the idea that Horton “proved” his case, which is not how I read Horton’s article. Like with much investigative work, Horton cobbled together a case for further investigation, pulling together information that demands additional inquiry. By his standards — undue deference to knowledgeable officials-turned-whistleblowers, clashes with the “official record,” “ignoring facts and statements collected by the government” – Dana Priest didn’t “prove” the CIA’s black sites exist, either.
Finally, there’s this:
But maybe the CIA is capable of such a crime and the entire U.S. government—across two administrations—is willing to devote its energies to a cover-up.
That’s just credulous. If you call it a “cover-up,” then sure, people will take it to be unserious and conspiratorial. But think of all of the unanswered questions around torture that Eric Holder’s torture inquiry won’t get at. What was the relationship between contract psychiatrists Bruce Jessen and James Mitchell and the CIA ahead of their 2001 contract for torture? How did the CIA know to tap those two for the basis for its torture programs? How many black sites did the CIA maintain, and for how long? How long, and for what purpose, did the CIA maintain a seperate facility at Guantanamo (as Shafer concedes)? And on and on. Shafer’s piece would make a lot more sense if we didn’t go through five years of revelations about torture — but maybe then he wouldn’t have written this in the first place.
I should say that I haven’t read the First Things blog posts Shafer hat-tips. I’ll read them today; maybe they’ll convince me Horton messed up.



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In addition to Carter’s very useful work on this you should also have a look at Rowan Scarborough’s piece here:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=35388
He has actually done a bit of investigative journalism by contacting sources in a position to know. I’m afraid Horton’s overwhelming bias has led him to see more than the evidence he found warrants. Carter and Scarborough also have biases, of course, but their evidence and reasoning makes more sense to me on the whole than Horton’s.
It’s also worth downloading the NCIS documents and reading some of the testimony, to get a flavor for what Horton is up against. It’s not a good investigation in terms of analysis (actually quite poor, from what I can tell), but the testimony does seem credible. Carter lists 50 witnesses who contradict Horton’s theory (minus one that doesn’t really contradict Horton that I can tell).
http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/detainees/death_investigation/NCIS_DeathInvestigativeFiles.pdf
Some additional handy indexes to the testimony can be found in the appendices to the Seton Hall report. (The Seton Hall report uses the handwritten page numbers on the lower right corner of the NCIS documents, while Carter uses the page numbers that Adobe Reader supplies.)
http://law.shu.edu/programscenters/publicintgovserv/policyresearch/upload/gtmo_death_camp_delta.pdf
It’s telling how known biases have led people to respond to Horton’s article. Much of the Left was very credulous of Horton’s theory from the start, while the Right was a little less troubled than it seemed to me it should have been, at least initially. But the Left got the worst of it in this case, I think.
Carter’s list of 50 is here, by the way:
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/01/26/on-the-shameful-murders-at-gitmo-conspiracy-part-iii/
Sorry, darlin’, but given the falsified times of death, the botched NCIS investigation and the FUCKING THROATS MISSING FROM THE CADAVERS, I think Occam’s Razor comes down on Horton’s side. He may never be proven right, but given what we now know I’m confident he’ll never be proven wrong, either.
Get back to me after you’ve actually read the evidence. There’s no good evidence the times of death were falsified, the testimony in the NCIS investigation is a lot more compelling than seeing a van drive back and forth, which is the heart of the testimony Horton relies on, and the fact that some of the throat organs (not the throats!) were retained until the investigation was over makes perfect sense. Darlin’.
Yipes, who are you calling darlin’?
But if you were going to torture prisoners to the point of death in interrogations, would you really draw three prisoners from the same cell block, inside the same hour, for that punishment?
That’s a lot more likely than same three prisoners independently committing suicide (a.k.a. “asymmetrical warfare”) in about the same way at about the same time.
You know, I really like the fact that now I know, when I plan to torture people to death, I should pace myself. Three in a night would be sooooo overdoing it. Maybe Robin Givhan can whip up something for the Style section of the WaPoo about the “torture diet,” complete with encouraging bios about how torture, in moderation, is the way to go for health, fitness, and staying out of jail.
Jack Shafer and Slate? I didn’t know either one of those were still around.
Lemme guess, tomorrow Jacob Weisberg returns to write a defense of the OPR Report on the infamous torture memos.
Ackerman-
I haven’t read you before.
I hope what you have to offer in the future sounds less like a dancing Obama doll and more like someone
With a conviction and the courage to voice it.
- about ” cocktails of excrement”. It’s a Red herring.
But it does allow you to post up that you have interviewed guards.
Why irrelevant?
Because 19 yr old kids did not kill these guys. They don’t make that decision. You’re infering they do,
prejudges the entire issue.
Schafer says ” but maybe the CIA…”
Does schafer know the CIA had direct involvement in the killings or say why he expects so.
I ‘d guess the CIA would stay as far away from a flakey operation like this as possible.
A more likely suspect would be the federaf assains working out of vp Cheney’s office.
Finally,
There is your’s and schafer’s obtuseness about why the killings occurred.
It seems to me most likely that the men were killed to Keep those of them who would soon be freed from g’mo from describing to the world what they had experienced at the hands of the u.s. Gov’t,
Especially the young son of the Saudi general.
My thesis in short,
The three detainees were not tortured for info or for retaliation,
They were murdered to keep some of them from speaking publicly about what the u.s. Was doing at g’mo.
Scarborough introductory line is so rhetorical that skipping the article would be quite reasonable:
Harper’s Magazine has topped all previous left-wing conspiracy stories on the Guantanamo prison by weaving a preposterous tale of murder and torture in what it presents is one of the most extensive cover-up in military history.
There’s no substance at all in that sentence, which assumes Horton’s ill intentions (without evidence) and relies on the silly “conspiracy-theory” canard. There have been a lot of conspiracies in history, and a lot of them were bigger than this one. And all conservatives know this; it’s part of the radical evil in human nature and all the other stuff they harp about.
With leadins like that, it’s no wonder that people are not paying attention.
San pete @4
“There’s no good evidence..”
That statement of yours is false.
There’s solid evidence
And NONE depends on a liberal.
You’re engaging in specious claptrap.
Scarborough begins:
Carter begins one of his pieces:
His first piece includes this line early on:
Following Carter’s own principle, no one with any sense would read any further. They just beg the question, assume Horton’s ill will and pile on the insults. Scarborough’s line doesn’t even make sense; there have been lots of conspiracies and coverups bigger than this one in history.
I’m going away with this considering that it was possible that Horton was wrong in good faith, a possibility that neither Scarborough nor Carter seems to have considered. As far as I’m concerned the case is open, because I’m not going to read any more of their crap. This particular story is one brick in a big wall, and I can do without it if it comes to that.
That’s a lot fairer treatment than conservatives usually give liberals. There’s really no reason to bother; questions of this type have become so embattled that there isn’t going to be any dialogue anyway. We’re still trying to convince conservatives that Medicare is a government program and that President Obama is an American, for Christ’s sakes. First things first.
San pete @1
You cite “human events” as a source.
“Human events-the headquarters of the conservative underground”
Do You really believe That this right wing propaganda publication is a solid source?
and then there’s your comment:
“much of the left was…(blah,blah,blah),
While the right was …. (blather, blather,blather).
And you are simple enough to believe this psued-neutral dodge of yours is convincing to those who read you?
You make me wonder if you didn’t go to the same rove-Goebbels school of propaganda that James o’keefe went to.
Because in the final analysis style will always prevail over substance. Yep, writing style should always be more important that the facts.
San pete
It is curious, at least to me, that you showed up first
And showed with your senior thesis, complete with citations to your own tribe’s voodoo manuals.
Most folks who sow up first just have an initial reaction -
Good
Bad
Stupid.
But you had a frigging college essay ready to go.
So how did it happen that you were the very well prepared first commenter to ackerman’s column?
Care to reveal your tactics?
Agree. Evil begets evil and we must keep thinking “America does not torture”. Apparently our country’s government is not strong enough to acknowledge the truth.
That’s the best you can do? Poor 19 year olds who are responsible for keeping people incarcerated for crimes they haven’t been accused of and cases that may never go to court who try to offend their captures. Your position is not persuasive nor ethical.
Whenever the “obviously I’m not” phrase is put into a sentence it almost always means that one should remove the irrelevant “obviously” from the sentence.
Ackerman says: “horton cobbled together…”
Horton did not” cobble together” anything;
he Made an investigative journalist’s report on work done
By seton hall law students.
Again, your use of phrases reminds me too
Much of the clever, fundamentally dismissive phrasing that mainstream journalists use all the.
Were you ever a mainstream journalist, ackerman?
> 19 year olds who have cocktails of excrement thrown at them
…by INNOCENT yet ILLEGALLY INCARCERATED and TORTURED United States concentration camp survivors.
What’s wrong with you, Ackerman? Can’t help identifying with the guards?
egr
So I went back and read your position a few more times and thought about it to see if I’d missed something. It’s still a no go. Your position is completely unacceptable. Whether you find other people’s arguments persuasive is not important so long as your own position is in doubt. You simply sound like an apologist for violence done in the name of the greater good, the incarcerator that is offended that the prisoner is displeased and I can’t think of a much worse position.
Here’s one of those innocent, yet illegally incarcerated and tortured, U.S. camp survivors, describing how he helped to save his sanity in Guantanamo for more than five years, as (rare though such things now are here) actually reported and quoted by a newspaper reporter (in Britain):
More here.
I do have a “brief” for Scott Horton: He’s an outstanding advocate for the rule of law, and actually upholding it, in this nation. With regard to this particular investigation and story about Guantanamo, I’d confidently wager that it’s going to bring Horton and/or Harper’s awards for reporting excellence.
I’d also wager that the story has obtained some legs and something’s moving on it somewhere, if namecalling and insult-focused pushback has begun by participants in the Play-acting Department of Tough Guys Defending the Realm. If so, it’s about damn time.
Here’s Harper’s response to Shafer, which ends:
And here’s more from Horton on “Camp No”:
Spencer, stop drinking the koolaid. It seems like every reporter who covers defense ends up buying into the narratives the DOD is dishing. So what are you saying that being 19 excuses anything? Are they that poorly trained? Or that poorly supervised? Or why is it that 19 year olds instead of seasoned professionals aren’t guarding these “worst of the worst”.
But as another commenter noted, these 3 weren’t killed by 19 year olds. They were killed by CIA or JSOC at a nearby site. So WTF does this 19 year old argument have to do with anything?
And of course why do you fail to mention the Seton Hall report, again mentioned by commenters above, that is a necessary basis for Horton’s reporting? You make it sound like it is just one reporter and it’s not.
Bottomline: Better analysis, less koolaid.
powwow @ 23
thank god there is reporter, pow wow, on the scene.
that other reporter disappeared into the main stream media’s favorite retreat -
the swamp of
on the one hand,
on the other hand,
submit the story and go home.
meet the deadline and collect the paycheck for doing so;
informing the public be damned. **
**note to editor
reporters who do as shabby a reporting job as ackerman has done here should be paid in script for their bumbling, thoughtless work.
No one thinks the three detainees were acting independently.
“There’s solid evidence”
At most there’s evidence of a disagreement over when the bodies were discovered. 22 witnesses place it after midnight, a few remember it being before midnight.
“You make me wonder if you didn’t go to the same rove-Goebbels school of propaganda that James o’keefe went to.”
Settle down. If you can show any substantive problem with Scarborough’s article, please do. You’re long on hot-winded rhetoric and short on evidence.
“So how did it happen that you were the very well prepared first commenter to ackerman’s column?”
Bizarre question. Does having coherent thoughts bother you?
Nobody doubts that what’s called Camp No exists. The question remains what it is.
The Seton Hall report doesn’t allege murders. That’s completely Horton.
“I’m going away with this considering that it was possible that Horton was wrong in good faith, a possibility that neither Scarborough nor Carter seems to have considered.”
Right, though Horton’s good faith is limited to believing what he says. It doesn’t extend to not allowing his bias to twist his views.
Can’t follow your reasoning about not reading their evidence because of their rhetoric. Horton’s no better. He insinuates that a host of people are lying without good evidence. Both Carter and Scarborough are providing a much needed counter to whet the much of the Left is pretty much swallowing whole.
> Bizarre question. Does having coherent thoughts bother you?
I don’t think it’s a bizarre question, but opinions on that might vary.
But “there can be no doubt” that it is a direct question that you deliberately avoided answering.
Answer the question, please. Or does answering direct questions bother you?
egr
I suppose those inclined to paranoia would find it a quite reasonable question. For most others, though, the idea soon occurs that for every thread that gets any responses there will be a first one, and that implies nothing odd about the person who makes it. If you look, you’ll see that my response was made many hours after Spencer posted. It was hardly a race.
As for how I found his post, I don’t even recall. It was probably linked to by someone else I was reading.
San pete-
You are a first-rate tight-wing dissembler – a verbal ducker and dodger who’s goal, as with any other propagandist, is to mislead and deceive while appearing credible.
As with any right-wing true-believer, you give all trust and credit to gov’t authorities who almost certainly have something to hide, but you do so only out of loyalty to the ruling PARTY,
What evincing a skillfully practiced skepticism about lawyers and soldiers who undertake to discover sordid truths about gov’t misconduct.
Practitioners of deceit like you are a tremendous burden on our democracy.
San pete-
“as for how I found his post I don’t even recall..”
Dissembler!!
Let me refresh your memory,
You were assigned to it.
If you had paid any attention, sanpete, you’d know that Horton says we should be very careful about making conclusions about cause of death. Horton himself never calls it murder.
‘Countdown with Keith Olbermann’ for Monday, January 18th, 2010
Search the transcript: “murder” does not appear. Others are saying that, sanpete. Stop putting words in Horton’s mouth.
Also: powwow, you rock, nicely done. Same goes for the rest of you. I bow in all y’all’s virtual directions.
Adding to powwow’s quoting of the Harper’s response:
Wow, orion, you really are nuts.
Buddha, If they didn’t commit suicide, they were murdered. Or do you think they all three died accidentally? Whoops! Horton insinuates it wasn’t suicide in the article and outright denies it was to Olberman. You figure it out. Horton and his mealy-mouthed editor are a good pair.
San pete
you are a con-artist,
A right-wing con artist.
Your con consists of
- making specious arguments that support your party,
- demanding others treat your specious arguments as
Valid currency.
But they’re not; they’re just more right-wing counterfeit.
By the way has your memory gotten better about how you came to coMment on this post?