You really are naive. Just wait. The neo-con right will soon be arguing that Iran is becoming a nuclear power because we left Iraq. I expect you to credit me when this happens.

And that would discredit this argument how?

Totaly OT, but here is a nice video of Oslo 5 hours ago. They emptied an old squat, and all the kiddies we thought had gone soft rose up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQRSDx3oLh8

Declare Victory go home I like it. Bush had 8 years to fix it he and the greatest minds the Neocons had have failed.

Iraq will IMO eventually go the way of Yugoslavia, none of its neighbors wish it well. Turkey will invade from the north to crush the Kurds who they hate and fear. Iran from the east to help their brother Shittes and the Saudis the South to aid the Arab Sunni minority. I give the place about a yr. after we leave. We destroyed the place so whatever happens it will be ugly.

I may be mis-reading this or mis-understanding it but “There is no “Iraq Syndrome” haunting us, of any sort. That, I would suggest, is a lasting victory.” doesn’t seem to recognize the extent of the PSTD affectations nor the suicide rates among such veterans.

Surely,such haunts those families coping with such and if U.S. citizens are not ‘haunted’ by the experience and rsults of the illegal invasion of Iraq, then we truly have lost what is called a soul.

No “Iraq Syndrome”?

Well, except the belief that pre-emptive invasions and occupations can turn out well, are a good thing that we should do again, if any prospects as “good” for this as Iraq should ever appear on the radar. Since there will never be a lack of nations not quite so foolish and irrational as Iraq for us to invade and occupy, I would not expect that day to be far off.

I don’t see the avoidance of recriminations as a useful and worthy end in itself. If we only avoid blame for “losing Iraq” because we chickened out on pressing a correct opposition to this fool war, all we’ve done is made it that much harder to show any backbone the next time a fool war needs to be opposed.

There’s your Iraq Syndrome, the delusional belief that getting into land wars on the continent of Asia is a good idea. I like it a lot less than the Vietnam Syndrome.

Let’s see it happen before we declare any victories.

There is an indeed an “Iraq Syndrome.” And the Iraq Syndrome” is this: the Surge work! American military power triumphs again! Never mind at least 1 million Iraqis–including 500,000 children–have died from our 2 wars and 10 years of sanctions against them. Never mind that 4 million Iraqis remain displaced to this day. Never mind that Maliki is returning Iraq to a police state. We won! Bush was right. The doves were wrong. And Obama pronounced that Bush’s surge exceeded his “wildest dreams.” Let’s beat the drums of war again! Today Afghanistan! Tomorrow Iran!

“That, I would suggest, is a lasting victory.”

It IS???

With 110,000 troops still there, and with the Maliki government swatting hundreds of opposition candidates out of the (scheduled for) March election like they were so many blowflies, I think someone is counting on chickens that aren’t even a gleam in the rooster’s eye.

I’m not saying for a moment that we should stay. In fact, Obama should have cut our forces there in half months ago while he still had some political capital to do it. Now, if the shit hits the fan, he’s going to pay a much bigger price for it.

Chortling some bullshit democratic version of the success of “Operation enduring shitmire” while the Maliki government is still dependent on all those troops, and on that $2 billion a weak that it’s costing us, is just crazy.

Far better to speak the truth; that a user-friendly-to-us happy ending was never possible, and get the hell out ANYWAY, than to create this bullshit sundae with “mission accomplished” whipped cream on top.

Spencer, you’re a good guy, and I’m glad you’re on our side, but when (not if) the factional shit hits the fan, you get the first spoonful of talkin’-goody-twoshoes ice cream.

I disagree with the entire premise. One of the few good things that happened in the U.S. after the Marshall Plan was the continuing refighting the VN war. If the U.S. “wins” in Iraq, it means that the U.S. can do that over and over and over again. Without any controversy whatsoever.

What do you feel was LEARNED from our “adventure” in Irak, Spencer?

Wouldn’t that be the true “measure” of any “victory”?

DW

Killing perhaps a million or more innocents, creating millions of orphans and refugees, while turning our nation into global torturers all based on lies at a waste of trillions in our treasure… can never lead to pride or any sane definition of victory.

Thanks for your complement last thread. It means a lot.

Ah, but per my 11, leaving in victory allows for endless repeats. Well, at least as long as the U.S. can “afford” it. Borrowing to make wars, well well.

Truth is truth, eCAHN, and your expertise and pithy insight are far more appreciated than words may convey.

DW

Premature iraqification.

Aerial pics of collapse of WTC next up on Rachel. Amazing stuff.

No one need worry about the downside of “leaving in victory”.

Even with those 110,000 troops there looking over the factional shoulders, there are plenty of harbingers of things to come:

http://www.kurdishglobe.net/displayArticle.jsp?id=F609A0AD6706C588687D2D2DF18110A9

And:

http://wire.antiwar.com/2010/02/10/oil-attack-halves-production-at-baghdad-refinery-2/

It’s a good thing the dead don’t get to voice their opnion.

!

Both are fair criticisms, and I wouldn’t argue with either. But, as you know, those voices don’t count in the U.S. Even if those things happen, it will play as victory within U.S. borders. Hell, Iraq is worse off today than it was while Saddam Hussein was in charge. Do you ever see any coverage like that in the U.S.? Most U.S.ians think, like W, that the U.S. liberated Iraq and that all is hunkey dorey.

The Nation is advertising on Rachel. First time I’ve heard a The Nation ad on TV.

Absolutely laughable. Withdrawal?

How many US sponsored Mercs are going to ‘stay-behind’ (as in stay-behind army a la Operation Gladio)?

Next thing I know you’re going to be telling us that Blackwater spoke the truth when they said they have no employees in Afghanistan.

…and if you think there’s no “Iraq Syndrome” for the returning troops you SURELY need to get out more often. Come to the town where I live and meet all the homeless and psychologically damaged Iraq vets.

I watched the Vietnam vets drug/drink themselves to death here, and it IS happening again. This time the Veterans Administration is attempting to PSYCHIATRIC-ALLY DRUG the returning American victims of another worthless war, but it ain’t working

As far as the US citizenry at large goes, you may be correct though. A net effect of the MASSIVE use of behavior mod psychotropic drugs prescribed to the gentry of MedicationNation.

It might be too much to ask but after we leave Iraq will military spending drop? If so by how much?

Do we need to talk about the 150-plus Iraqis killed in the bombings in the first week of this month? And, the same math applies for light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel Obama, as applied for bush.

If you work out the relative population numbers, it’s the equivalent of roughly 2,000 americans killed, if that had taken place here.

That’s a BUNCH of pissed-off relatives, many of whom are surely biding their time until (and if) our troop numbers dip below the point-of-no- return for purposes of propping up the Maliki government and keeping the factional mesopotamian games from starting, or, I should say, re-starting.

Again, we should leave anyway, but for God’s sake: for democrats’ sake; for OBAMA’s sake: please!…no metaphorical swollen-crotched struts across the carrier deck. That’s just asking for Obama to look even more like a fuckup than he does now.

Maybe we can get the Iraqui’s to invade that pain in the ass Iran. There is no love lost between them anyway!

Or put slightly differently: How can the U.S. EVAH be proud of what it did in Iraq? The mere idea is nauseating. Yet, that is how it will play.

How many US sponsored Mercs are going to ’stay-behind’ (as in stay-behind army a la Operation Gladio)?

Next thing I know you’re going to be telling us that Blackwater spoke the truth when they said they have no employees in Afghanistan.

Good point Iraq has banned Blackwater any bets Blackwater created a shell company to keep on working in Iraq?

Precisely.

Liberal hawks celebrating the lack of memory in America of the crime we have committed in Iraq is not my idea of victory.

I concur. Thanks to US destabilization of the entire region.

Ah, Siun, happy to catch you. Are you aware of this group? Rip your heart out (again).

Unless one Bushie gets picked up in Europe for war crimes then Obama gets embarrassed for not prosecuting anyone we can use that to force prosecutions.
The GOP will scream about that all over the news so the issue won’t get ignored and we can try and get the our case into the media again.
Well thats the good scenario I admit.

There is just so much wrong with this.

It’s to his credit that he took the most sensible, balanced and conciliatory approach to withdrawal available.

Care to elucidate on any of those adjectives or did you just draw them at random from a hat?

Gave Gen. Odierno an extra few months to withdraw combat troops and allowed him to backload the process, thereby preventing any antagonism.

Wasn’t it about back in August 2009 that Odierno announced that a drawdown would not occur until after the Iraqi elections? That’s 7 months or more than the few extra months you allude to. The withdrawal from Iraq could already have been done. We could have been out in 9 months tops. Instead Obama ran on an 16 month (one combat brigade a month) plan because he was catching heat from Republicans and McCain yammering about a precipitate withdrawal. So his original plan was premised on spreading out the withdrawal. But keeping so many troops in Iraq until the elections and having those elections delayed as they were results in a withdrawal that will not be spread out. It will be precipitate or backloaded as you call it. And it rather shows that the withdrawal could have been handled in 9 months as I said above.

Promptly shifted the conversation back to Afghanistan (and Pakistan) where Obama argued the real focus on al-Qaeda belonged.

How many al Qaeda are in Afghanistan? Do you buy into this focus? So Obama changed the focus from one pointless war to another pointless war and this is what kind of an improvement?

Gave his administration’s most experienced quasi-diplomat the Iraq-diplomacy brief.

This is the only thing I agree with. Chris Hill is a topnotch diplomat.

It really says a lot about the Obama Presidency when one of the great achievements of this administration is based on the lowest common denominator of sensible thought…to get the heck out of Iraq.

Isn’t Biden setting the bar a little too low?

33 comments and only Ockham understand what the hell the post said.

One in nine homes in America is vacant… enough to house every homeless person in the country.

In the not-so-distant-future when the no-longer-economic-gentry get desperate enough after sleeping at prison-like ‘homeless shelters’, the US will have to deploy it’s returning National Guard who helped “Win the war” (at the expense of the financially gang-raped US economy) to assist municipal police departments across America with squatter removal.

When they aren’t busy gunning down vets a la the ‘Bonus Army’:

On July 28, U.S. Attorney General Mitchell ordered the veterans removed from all government property. Washington police met with resistance, shots were fired and two veterans killed. President Hoover then ordered the army to clear out the veterans. Infantry and cavalry supported by six tanks, commanded by Army Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur. General, later President, Dwight D. Eisenhower was his liaison with Washington police and Major George Patton led the cavalry. The Bonus Army, their wives and children were driven out with fixed bayonets and adamsite gas, an arsenical vomiting agent, and their shelters and belongings burned. Two more of the veterans, and an unknown number of babies and children, died–accounts range from one to “a number.” [source]

Well, gee, I sure am glad that you pointed out that you & Ockham have the monopoly on truth.

He said all US troops were going to actually leave Iraq, and there is no “Iraq Syndrome” ROTFLM M/F AO!

If Chris Hill were a top notch diplomat he would have committed suicide a long time ago. His persistence is evidence of his incompetence.

Ah, macaquerman, I guess the rest of us were concerned with what the post either did not say or did not acknowledge.

Oh, and WO is correct.

How ya doing?

(Advocating for the devil, even in jest, is a hard slog, sometimes … aye?)

DW

I’m not an insider, but I suspect they ALL transfer employees around and if I remember correctly (correct me if I’m wrong) ArmourGroup just did that with a bunch of their employees involved in the Kabul embassy ‘sex scandal’ and made it quite plain that’s exactly what they were doing.

ROTF!

always a pleasure, DW.

and, not so hard here, as my client is awash in unwitting help hereabouts, although it seems to have skipped this past Sunday evening

Waiting for the counterarguement. Chris Hill has always seemed sensible whenever I’ve heard him on cspan. Yet … nothing. So I conclude. But willing to listen to the other side.

BTW, if the U.S. has no diplomatic skills other than Chris Hill to convince Hugh via cspan, the U.S. has no diplomatic skills, and surely all is lost. No offense to Hugh who is one of the most critical observers of reality ever.

Do tell, Mocker of men.

;~DW

If ever or whenever WashingtonDC does an actual pull out ( you know– all American military presence removed )–until then– there has not been a American withdrawal from Iraq.

To suggest Barack Obama is doing a withdrawal from Iraq while not turning over the American military bases ( the super bases in particular ) or doing full surrender of USAF Iraqi airspace command and control is BS.

Odd how these SOFA leave behinds are not seen as Americans being in Iraq.

Suggesting this American military pullout from Iraq is something to get all “proud” over is something of a propaganda toss is it not?

What if China had moved on Iraq and proceeded to do what Americans did from March 2003 going forward to 2010? WashingtonDC would have been howling and barking something fierce. It is certain WashingtonDC would have condemned China non stop and would have fully used the UN to harass and thwart China. China claiming to be “leaving” Iran while leaving behind military superbases and a massive embassy fortress in Baghdad would have been scorned and denounced by WashingtonDC over and over.

So how many Iraqis died who had nothing to do with what took place on 9/11/2001? Or became refugees? Or have suffered life reversals that cannot ever be undone? Nothing to do with 9/11/2001. Nothing.Yet Iraq was attacked and laid to ruin because of 9/11/2001.

Proud of that? Really?

This pride in American militarism,these claims of victory and the stinking propaganda toss outs?

Shoveling the BS.

Another great comment, arrow.

Always good to “see” you and read your thoughtful and timely (and terribly true) comments.

DW

Just to put the numbers on the thread: a million plus “excess” deaths of innocent civilians. 2 or 4 million innocent Iraqi refugees. Not to mention the alive Iraqi victims who rip your heart out.

Yes, the U.S. has a lot to be proud about. /s

I haven’t followed Hill’s record in Iraq but from what I know he did a good job in negotiations with North Korea despite all the crazies in the Bush Administration. I don’t agree with all of his positions but he is one of the few career diplomats who seems to remember what a diplomat does.

That’s a point worth talking about, eCahn, but wadr, I have my doubts that the MSM can or will, be pimping for Biden’s idjit scenario, at the same time Baghdad has reverted to Lebanon on steroids.

Likewise, the Kurds give fuckall about “greater Iraq”. Did you read the clip about the Kirkuk-to-Baghdad pipeline being bombed for the umpty-umpth time? Without us there, I think THAT particular attack might not be repeated, for the obvious reason that the Kurds will simply turn one big pipeline valve and that will be that. Is the “central government” going to send troops up there to re-open it? That’ll be interesting to watch.

Kirkuk is just outside of the Kurdish part of the north, but they already have de facto control of it. If we have pulled 90,000 troops out of Iraq, any kind of tooth-to-tail math will tell us that the whack-a-mole game is over. Period.

Moreover, without boots on the ground to protect the status quo, all of those giant reserves adjacent to Kirkuk, at the moment, most of them still under the control of Maliki’s government, will begin to experience a gravitational pull to the north like you wouldn’t believe.

It’s not rocket science: the people in what used to be Iraq wouldn’t sing Kum-ba-yah for Bush, and they’re not going to sing it for Obama either.
Aint. Gonna. Happen.

The capper to this, is that back on March 4, 2007, when Biden was starting his run for the democratic nomination, he fucked up and spoke some truth, when he said that Iraq should be partitioned.

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20070304/NEWS/703040345/Biden-supports-three-part-Iraq-split

He had to kind of fart and tapdance around with it, but what he was surely saying, was:

“I know that this will have it’s own gigantic downside, but it’s the least-worst alternative to the insanity of trying to fight a centrifugal force somewhat equivalent to that of the wildest carny ride ever invented. Continuing to attempt to suppress and control the natural result of george bush’s lunacy, with huge amounts of blood and treasure, is a lose-lose proposition that won’t whoa.”

It’s not surprising that now that Operation Enduring Shitmire (thanks, Driftglass…) is largely the property of Obama and the democrats, Biden singing a song from the tattered bushCo hymnal.

Sorry guys; but it was a mile off-key when junior was up to his ears in gore, and despite the reduction in that, it’s no more harmonious, now.

Just you woit, ‘enry ‘iggins. :o(

I admit, no one knows for SURE what will happen, but I think that Obama will eventually wind up taking advantage of the Kurds’ near-permanent offer of good basing opportunites, and will put a large chunk of that 110,000 into two or three bases in the north, and it will probably start happening this summer, so he can sorta-kinda stick to the idea of getting them “out of Iraq”. Of course, that won’t keep the lid on in Fallujah, which has a bit of a violent history, if we’ll remember, and where ANY representative of the Shiite-dominated central government that shows his face without american troops within hollering distance, will be converted into Alpo, and I mean instanter.

On Larry King, Joe Biden was rapping down incumbent-party shitspeak, when he should have been saying:

“We’ve done all we can do. It’s time to get out and let the chips fall.”

At the least, the voters would have some respect for his NOT running the same old bullshit.

Now we can erase all that blood and shit from our collective memory. War is good.

Don’t disagree with that. Only remark that anyone who has not resigned or committed suicide is part of the problem. I am NOT impressed by limp wristed efforts.

It’s not for Biden to say whether Iraq should be partitioned. Oh silly me, I thougt Iraq’s future was up to the Iraquis.

Those who disagree do not necessarily misunderstand.

One hopes some of them remember.

American diplomacy, as practiced in the field, has, for the most part, gone down hill since the days when Franklin was in Paris.

One of our better OSS officers, a man named Thompson, who worked with Ho Chi Mingh, and understood the need of consequent and meaningful “diplomacy”, died, under strange “circumstances”, soon after suggesting that, morally, our debt was to the Vietnamese and not the French …

America has little use for the thoughtful, seriously well-educated types who would learn the language, respect the customs, and care about the people of other nations … We want our diplomats to be either cover for covert crapola or suck-ups, who can wine and dine dictators and thugs with genuine pleasure and aplomb.

Are you really that enamored of the purple-fingered-ecstacy of “elections” held with the country occupied by the United States?

true, but disagreeing with something other than what was said or meant is indicative.

but, what the hey, I’m just being a worrywart.

The American military has to “save face.” For the second time in my adult life, with a third looming on the horizon, the military has been unable to prevail over an insurgency supported by the indigenous population. Had it not been for Al Sadr’s ceasefire order prior to the “surge” we’d be having a different discussion. Al Maliki, to his credit, has not turned out to be quite the puppet the US had hoped he would. Ferdinand Marcos he ain’t. The military and administration can label it anything they want but it will be neither a “victory” nor will there be anything like a total withdrawal. Troops to continue to train the army and police forces, all sorts of “tasks” for the military to perform, particularly now that Scumwater got totally blackballed. Have to see how Scumwater works around that little obstacle.

Partitioning Iraq is not the way to go…! You think the Kurds would be better off…? Think again…! Either Turkey or Iran would immediately move against the Kurds…!

I find that when an initial action I took that was wrong, and I corrected it, that I was humbled, and where feasible, much less required, I apologized.

Pride is a different emotional circumstance for me altogether.

So. Do you think it will stay together without us there…that beating within the hearts of all those factions is a deep-seated lust for Jeffersonian Democracy?

No counter argument from me… I was ROTF in agreement.

I like that. “purple-fingered ecstasy” sounds like something from way-back

Same question for you, CT. You think with us gone it will stay together?

(I think that if 90,000 of our troops leave, one of the things that will happen is that the Green Zone will turn into the world’s most expensive mortar-training range…)

Hey! One good thing: at least we’re having this…conversation. For a while, on some of the progressive blogs, it was like the height, or depth, of Bush’s second term:

“Iraq? That’s a four-letter word; we don’t use that in polite company.”

I don’t know of anyone who’s been against the war for any length of time who doesn’t believe there’ll be a violent power struggle when we leave. Algeria’s a fair example.

Is it for us to decide whether or not Irak will “stay together”?

Maybe if we “helped” in some way other than killing the people and laying waste the countryside, had we invested in peace and not war, then we might have some “standing” to make suggestions.

Have we made it a better place?

Have we provided an example worth emulating?

What moral basis do you wish us to operate from?

Shall we “put it back to what it was”?

How shall we ever repay our human debt to the Iraki people?

In the next thousand years, or so?

Perhaps, in fairness, we should invite the Irakis to pass judgment on the direction of our society?

We don’t appear to be “staying together” all that well …

When do you propose, if we don’t intend to help Irak rebuild, with NO strings attached, that we leave?

These are the questions which haunt me.

Which ones, specifically, haunt you, tanbark?.

DW

You think with us gone it will stay together?

That’s a very good question considering all of Maliki’s actions to date has isolated both the Sunnis and the Kurds at every conceivable juncture, Re-integration, Oil, Elections, you name it, he’s either slow walked those pieces of legislation or squashed them…!

Is it for us to decide whether or not Irak will “stay together”?

Morally, no it is not. Then there’s the rub. Morally, it is our responsibility to repair what damage we can repair, in all areas. How do we do that without a continued military presence? We stay, more people die. We leave, more people die.

FUBAR

Yes.

Which is why I asked Spencer if we had learned anything.

This time.

FUBAR

PS, SD: ‘Tis good to see you in the later PM.

DW

BTW; Iran cannot attack the Kurds. Way too many negatives for them to do that.

The TURKS are somewhat more likely to use muscle IF we’re not there, especially if the Kurds start grabbing those big fields around Kirkuk. But that’s why I think that Obama will opt for some bases up there. (Bush would have, too…)

It will mean:

More stability in the north. As long as we’re up there, nobody does nuthin’…up there.

It keeps a big chunk of our military close enough to central Iraq to influence events there. Which is to say, to continue to prop up Maliki as long as he doesn’t start exchanging too many assrubs with Teheran, and as long as he’s willing to share the oil-pie with the Sunnis.

(The Kurds already have about 1.5% of Iraq’s reserves in their three provinces. It doesn’t sound like much, but that’s a lot of dinars. I’ll be surprised if they aren’t already negotiating with the Chinese for some high-grade war toys, down the road.)

One potential problem is the south, where most of the rest of Iraq’s reserves are. It’s almost completely dominated by the Shiites, but there are factions with the faction down there, and the “secsesh” instinct is alive and well. They been saying that if the Kurds can have THEIR own parliament, and control of the oil that’s within their region, why can’t the southern provinces do the same?

A bottom line: no matter what happens, if an Iraqi central government can survive our leaving, there is going to be Shiite control of most of Iraq’s oil. Their agenda will be close enough to that of Iran’s that unless we have troops ready to go back in (a nightmare scenario for Obama) we aren’t going to be able to control their policies, at least, not enough to inhibit them from making some degree of common cause with Iran.

And there are two powerful mid-east countries that don’t want that:

Israel and Saudi Arabia.

I would say the situation is…fraught.

“Fraught” (by way of FUBAR as instigated by Big Daddy Warbucks.)

Agreed, tanbark.

Whatever we do, or don’t do, we own the consequence.

The “war” in Irak may “end”, for us, but it will not be “over”.

It will merely be forgotten, until some tendril has grown long enough and strong enough to reach us in our “homeland” … and then we will remember.

DW

Good post Spencer.

Dear Spencer, Love Ya Hoss But Yer Nuckin Futz:

Leavin?

When are we leaving?

In what ways, in what numbers?

We’re leaving The Green Zone Embassy?

We’re leavin Blackwater/XE and all the other contractors in The Green Zone, or thru out Iraq?

What’s this leavin shit?

Spencer, yer losin it, hoss . . .

We ain’t leavin.

Call me when this shit’s true . . .

Oh, did I mention . . . we ain’t leavin don’t mean what you think it means?

Gawd, the liberal left media is going batshit crazed as I read it.

This is sad, Spencer, how you report this.

Them bases all thru out Iraq? Landing strips? How many are there?

Emptied? Really? Swear?

Did you recently get a job where Ezra Klein works, for the corporate feudalists, that are paying you now?

Cuz dawg help if FDL is paying you for this dribble.

Sorry if it’s harsh, Spencer, but your posits are beyond the pale.

Or maybe, you posited it all wrong and I don’t get it . . .

S’heah.

I agree. Aint gonna be no happy ending…certainly not for us. Do we deserve one?

No. Of course not.

At least, with Afghanistan, we knew who was responsible for a REAL attack on us, and where he was, and who was hosting him.
With Iraq, it was ALL koolaid and blood and jingo testosterone-patriotism, from day one of bush’s invasion.

Bartoo: all good questions.

I’ll do the best I can. Again, my 2c, there ARE no good “solutions”.
Obviously, we can’t put it back.

(Some poster, way-years ago, said it best: “If the republicans know how to un-shit THIS bed, I want to hear it.”)

We have to leave. That is, we have to let the people there decide what they want to do with what used to be Iraq. (It was cobbled up by the big powers for oil-purposes, after WW I) But it’s fair to ask: will leaving some troops there add to what stability there is now, or even just sustain it, and will it reduce the chances of a bloody factional war that will make Lebanon in the 1970′s look tame by comparison? I think it MIGHT, short-term, but I also think that when we DO leave, we will have the same wretched Hobson’s Choice, whether it’s 10 months from now or 10 years from now. So; why stay?

Why not say to the Iraqis:

“We are leaving. Beginning in 90 days. In six months the american military presence will be vestigial, and useless for furthering our own direct interests, or for preventing civil strife, if the factions can’t work together and make the compromises to prevent that. If it happens, we will try to convince the participants to stop, but we won’t use force. If killing each other is so important to you that you can’t resist it, then we will watch. Our hands certainly won’t be clean; we will have blood up to our elbows, for what we’ve done, but we won’t join in the killing, nor even to try to stop it.
If, on the other hand, you’re able to work out the tough compromises and hold reasonably fair elections, we will do all we can to help rebuild your country, and we will use our economic power and influence to try to ensure that all Iraqis share in the benefits of the oil wealth that the country possesses. That’s the promise. Watch, and we will begin to fulfill the first part of it within 90 days. After that, it will be up to the people of Iraq to decide their future.”

I don’t think that Obama will say this. I don’t think he even wants to say it. The evidence of his presidency that I’ve seen so far points to the fact that he still believes, as Bush did, that there is corporate gain to be gotten from keeping a big part of our military occupying Iraq.

But at this point, after years of bullshit, I’m of the bandaid-on-the-hairy-leg school of thought. Get. Out.

I think the arguments for staying to “help” are too full of overt or latent american self-interest of one kind or another to justify listening to them any more.

But I’ll sure listen to anyone else’s thoughts.

it aint over till its over

we keep their gov locked up in the green zone

it was about oil and a pres that wanted to be a war president

both the demos and repubs are imperialists to the core

to the core

most of americans are imperialists to the core

720 military bases around the world says it all about american imperialism

the american empire is coming to an end and the world will be safer for it

and if you think there is no karma with that imperialism then you know little about karma

the self destruction is all around us

history shows us the karma with countries that commit imperialism

Glad to see your fonts and thoughts, hoss . .

I’ve a less civil response to Spencer than you . . .

Your’s spells it out. As always. Thanks for taking the time to do so.

*G*

You and I been with and around this mulberry tree of history of how the ME was carved out from WW1 and WW2, why it was carved out, and how the USA got involved with deposing Iraq leadership with Shah Reza Pahlavi, for years now.

We have helped each other learn more and more about the history of the US follies, in ME, in SE Asia, and thru out history.

I’m proud to say, I sure hold forth with you arm in arm and hand in hand . . .

On it all.

Thanks, for saying the stuff I can’t say, although I bray it often and oftener.

*G* Yer a hoss, and it’s GREAT to see yer fonts here, and when SD smiles with ya, yer home.

SD, Tan’s a gyrine. And he’s a hoss of a liberal progressive fighter, also.

And he’s a picker, of the finest music out and about . . . the grass. I’ve not met the man, but feel like I’ve known him for decades . . . music will do that to ya . . *G*

Info ya can’t scratch back at.

Nicely done.

Huzzah.

I’d add: I think Larue is probably right. I think we’re too far in.

I think Obama has shown nothing like the willingness to go against the imperial grain of amurka, and leave those bases to the Shiite-dominated Iraqi military. If we pull most of our troops out, and mortar shells start raining down on the green zone like in the bad old days, will the Iraqi security forces be as zealous in preventing that as were american troops?

I think there is a ton of pressure on him from both Israel and the Saudis to keep enough of our military there to stop Maliki, or any Iraqi government, from embracing an agenda that would dovetail with Iran’s.

Joe Lieberman will CERTAINLY flay the ass off him, it he pulls most of our troops out.

More: I think Hillary Clinton may well openly oppose him if Biden’s right and Obama withdraws 90,000 troops from Iraq by the end of this summer. She might even resign, as a first step in running against him, although I expect she would wait until closer to 2012 and keep an eye on his poll numbers before doing that.

Either way, as an american president, he’s got some political dues to pay for what George Bush and the republicans did, with some democratic help. It may not be fair, but it is what it is.

Larue, bakatcha, dude. :o)

Jesus, all that foxhole time at Bluegrass Rules, in the belly of the beast with all the cons. It was one hell of a poster’s boot camp, weren’t it? :o)

Always good to hear your voice. You want lead, tenor, or baritone? :o)

You miss Tan’s point . . . completely.

CT, love ya, but Tan has this one nailed shut with the barn door closed.

Iraq is lost, it’s failed, and it WILL deconstruct, with or without the US interventions.

I’m surprised I have to tell ya this . . .

And there’s why you and Tan are special to me . . *G*

Only I’ve known Tan for a lot longer . . .

*G*

Yer killin me, and yer trying to misflame Tan’s POV.

MY point of view is we leave now, and let the ME sort itself out, it’s no threat to us!!!!

When ya wanna joust the issues of WHY we are in the ME, well, then we can go to that.

But this country’s fucked up, domestically. We don’t need to spend another dime of a trillion for 3 wars.

Abroad.

Useless wars, that gain us NOTHING by being there.

When ya decide to tell me why we are THERE, and should BE there, lemme know.

But if it’s for national defense against them horrible arab terrorists, or to own and keep the natural resources, I’ll argue yer ass off all day and night long . . . morally and economically, all day and night long.

I often appreciate your posits, this one I disagree, as you can tell.

*G*

CT, you don’t want to engage Tan on this issue, any more than ya wanna engage me . .

There’s war, and there’s antiwar.

Me and Tan, got the antiwar thang down cold . . .

And here I thought you did, too . .

*G*

Love ya, hoss, we’re on the same side, and Tan’s a bud.

He’s solid.

Heh, I’m feeling a bit of the high notes on Molly N Tenbrooks if ya don’t mind, or Handsome Molly . . . need yer 5 string for the fills and vamps, though, it’s tough to sang and pick a dobro and lead it all . . .*G*

i guess u need to take your tongue out of your cheek

please see comment #90

Leaving Iraq is thoroughly uncontroversial.

What are all those permanent bases for we built in Iraq? When we keep thousands of “support” troops there indefinitely, are you still going to claim we “left” Iraq?

If they rename our active soldiers in Afghanistan to “Clown Troops” does that mean we are not longer occupying that country, but instead just showing up at lots of birthdays to make balloon animals?

With Empires drumbeat for bombing the hell out of Iran growing louder by the week, one would have to be extremely naive to think we would give up such a useful strategic location as Iraq just as we are starting to kick off (sanctions) our run up to a new and shiny 6th ongoing war. (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia).

Iran, for when 5 wars is just not enough.

This isn’t the first time Spencer Ackerman the “ATTACKERMAN” has rolled over for the Establishment. I recall his piece on a former Iraq war vet who now runs some firm in D.C. and profits from doing business in Iraq. The guy put a snow job on ATTACKERMAN turning him into “ACQUIESCENCE-MAN”.

I LOVE Firedoglake. It is one of the best blogs going.

Uh, and this was who, exactly? Be a man and show me who I shilled for if you’re going to lob that ignorant shit off me. If you’re talking about Doug Ollivant — the only person I know whom I’ve written of who could possibly fit this description — he’s not making a penny off of Iraq.

Also: everybody, I did not mean to suggest for one moment that there is no PTSD amongst Iraq veteran. The term “Iraq Syndrome” was meant to conjure up “Vietnam Syndrome” which was a hang-up of policymakers. (Not that it was necessarily a bad thing; I interrogated the suggestion that it is in a 2006 piece.)

And what I thought my context showed — but maybe not — was that “Lasting Victory” here means getting out of Iraq without it being a gigantic political imbroglio/culture war. If that was confusing, sorry.

Bingo. And the Obama administration, the MSM and the majority of the Americans people are more than happy to roll right over them, never counting, never acknowledging, never apologizing the death and destruction that has taken place due to that immoral and illegal invasion.

Hell I heard Diane Rehm the other day end her program by reading an emailers comment. About how the Iraqi people owe us for liberating them and asked why everyone looks to us for help.

I could not believe Rehm would spin the death and destruction in that country that way. I was absolutely disgusted

Iraq to Blackwater Get Out
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/10/world/main6194703.shtml
“(AP) Iraq has ordered hundreds of private security guards linked to Blackwater Worldwide to leave the country within seven days or face possible arrest on visa violations, the interior minister said Wednesday.

The order comes in the wake of a U.S. judge dismissing criminal charges against five Blackwater guards who were accused in the September 2007 shooting deaths of 17 Iraqis in Baghdad.

It applies to about 250 security contractors who worked for Blackwater in Iraq at the time of the incident, Interior Minister Jawad al-Bolani told The Associated Press.”
———————————————————————–

The people in Iraq know our justice system, they know the way we work, they have hundreds of thousands dead, injured, millions displaced.

They just witnessed our so called justice system allow the Blackwater murderers off. They know. Blackwater get the fuck out

I was talking about this point:

And so we’re leaving, with no domestic acrimony from any corner. There is no “Iraq Syndrome” haunting us, of any sort. That, I would suggest, is a lasting victory.

Just because there is no obvious domestic acrimony now, that doesn’t mean that there won’t be some later. If I’m right, then the current lack of “Iraq Syndrome” doesn’t ensure that the victory you see is really lasting. I’m saying that you are underestimating the perfidy of those who inhabit the nexus of warmongering ideology and political gamesmanship. Someday it will serve their interest to fan the flames of the culture war in a desperate bid to regain the levers of power. You’ll see the “intellectual” ground laid for it by the William Kristols of the world in 2011. After Obama wins re-election, they’ll really get going.

I could write more, but gotta get to the day job. You are still one of the very best reporters in Washington. You just aren’t pushing 50 years old like I am. If I’m wrong, you can write it off to my having been scarred by the Vietnam syndrome.

I’m saying that you are underestimating the perfidy of those who inhabit the nexus of warmongering ideology and political gamesmanship. Someday it will serve their interest to fan the flames of the culture war in a desperate bid to regain the levers of power.

OK, I understand now. And I take the point entirely. While I want to reply, “… but the fact that the Syndrome doesn’t exist now will make it harder to cynically gin it up later!” I realize I would sound like an even-more-naive fool if I did. So very good, prescient and thorough objection to the post, and I will think harder about my observation’s ability to withstand scrutiny. Maybe being in Washington gives me too transitory and short-term a sense of what “lasting victory” really means. I am thinking in terms of news cycles and you know better than that.

Also, everyone, I responded to the many criticisms you made in this post.

Hate to break it to you, but we are not, and never will be until forced to, leaving Iraq. Ain’t. Gonna. Happen. If one explores all the reasons for going there in the first place (and not the BS about evil Saddam and his WMD), you will realize this. Not. Leaving. Ever. Any and all reports that say otherwise are all BS. Sure there will be a troop drawdown to a certain number. That’s normal. But don’t kid yourselves. At a moment’s notice, that many will be back as quickly as you can say oil. And this fantasy about Iraq wanting Blackwater/XE out of their country, etc? Um, Iraq will do as it is told. Period. If their leaders even pretend to have any sort of autonomy, they will be removed.

Oh, and Spencer?

But the administration truly does have a great achievement to its name here

What was GW Bush and the Rethuglicans timeline for withdrawal? So Obama is supposed to be given credit for something that was already planned?

I’m happy to give Bush some credit for the SOFA, but Bush launched SOFA negotiations in 2007 to get the Iraqis to acquiesce to an indefinite presence. Ryan Crocker was unable to secure that, and the Iraqis ended up forcing the negotiating team to accept what Bush euphemistically called “a time horizon” for withdrawal — the opposite of what the negotiating goal is. It was a diplomatic disaster, but Bush ultimately reasoned — and I give him credit here! — that it would be much worse to reject the quasi-treaty.

So, fair point: Obama inherited something very politically beneficial to his desires. But he should get credit for those desires, and for a so-far successful path for implementing them.

http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/05/zombie.jpg

some of us old guard still haven’t surrendered

If 80,000 or so troops, stand down from Iraq, where are they going? Who’s going to maintain the whip cracking over the heads of the Iraqi puppet regime? And regardless of the stream of feel good stories on Iraq, American weaponry, soldiers and political influence is going nowhere really. Think they are going to just cut the strings and say “Tada! Congrats! You are now your own nation again!”??

I had thought that Attackerman was like the “even tougher, really heavy fist/arm” of FireDogLake. But I haven’t been here much. I guess I was going by the picture.

I’m BLOODY speechless, but thankful to the other commenters that I don’t have to say a thing. Or at least, I can keep it real short.

(Ah, Nixon, thank you for getting us out of that illegal bloody war. You sure were the man for that. RIP.)

A person I know who “lives and works” in Iraq told me repeatedly that if I think Obama or any other president will end the war in Iraq and get us out of there, I need to go TO IRAQ and check out the extent of our presence there, and observe the pace at which it continues to grow.

Obama has done nothing that Bush/Cheney or McCain wouldn’t also have done. He is a strict, complete, pure extension of that, as anyone can all too painfully see, over and over and over again. This grasping at any speck of glitter you can dream up on your stone idol is sickening, and I only mean that literally, not at all hatefully. You sound like Olbermann. What’re you, just shooting for the Very Young and Hopelessly Hopeful, like he does? Because this editorial is beyond belief.

Okay, it was Doug Ollivant. If he isn’t making money off Iraq or some other defense related business I stand corrected. I stand by my assertion that you are too close to the powers that be in Washington and are losing perspective. You even admitted that you are thinking in terms of news cycles and not long term stability in Iraq. United States has nothing to be proud of in Iraq.

If you read the post,john, it doesn’t say that the US should be proud of the war.
It makes an entirely different assertion, related to getting the hell out of Iraq without having to listen to right-wingers crying about it in public.

So we just ACCEPT now, that anything we want done has to be something the right wing won’t cry about in public. And that’s where the bar is for proud achievement in our party? Yes, so I’ve noticed.

what don’t you understand about the positive aspect of avoiding unnecessary shit-flinging?

(he asked somewhat ruefully)