Tell me ‘Mullah’ in this case is a name and not a title, because I may be drunk(it’s Presidents’ Day, you think I shjould be sober?), but the day America even considers torturing a priest is the dayt America takes its own flesh of its own fuckingf bones.

Your title, Spencer, says it all.

I hope “they” listen to you.

I know, you said, “we”, and, by saying “they”, I mean, specifically, those who are in a position to do, or condone doing, what you have very clearly and very publicly stated must NOT be allowed to happen.

DW

I don’t have much faith that they won’t torture him. Not until the Red Cross gets monthly visits.

It is a title, although it’s generally used for those educated in Islamic Law and theology. However, the Taliban have used the title more generally to refer to leaders of the movement (Such as Mullah Omar, whose name is Muhammad Omar), not necessarily to those with rigorous training in sacred theology or law.

I have to agree with Spencer on this obviously. If we, or the ISI, torture Baradar, we’re pretty much playing right into their hands (Everyone knows how effective torture/harsh detention narratives are at rallying support for Jihadis… well, everyone except some of our policy makers I guess. Ugh).

I have faith that WE won’t. I think the CIC has been clear enough about that. My fear is that the Pakistanis, who torture as a matter of course, will do it, and that we’ll get the blame.

Ah yes. The US military under the disguise of “global NATO forces” captures yet another “leader” to justify the killing of little children. When did anyone justify the Afghanistan invasion as being at war with the Taliban? This shit has to stop. It’s disgusting. They kill, and people make excuse after excuse after excuse. First we were there for all those Al Qaeda (100 or less admitted by government), now we are overthrowing the government, installing puppets, and justifying the killing of small children as getting rid of the evil Taliban. And like Iraq, every other day it will be justified by capturing another “leader”. BS.

right

Well, at least he was just captured, and not killed by drone as it the Obama norm.

Oh, Spencer! You know the US doesn’t torture. We just “enhance” our interrogations.

But seriously, thanks for this. Given Obama’s “pragmatism” (see Glenn Greenwald today for more on that), which I see as moral relativism, it’s important to bring attention to this issue from the proper side.

The United States does not torture. We contract that work out.

My bet is that ObamaCo will start off trying to do things the legal way. But if the Mullah does not cooperate, they’ll yank out his fingernails as soon as they get the least pressure from Sen. Graham or others of his ilk.

Boxturtle (Let’s make him listen to Britney Spears comeback album!)

Thanks for all the smart comments guys. As you can see from my frontpage, I’m turning the blog over to two great guestbloggers today, but I wrote a “what this all means” post for the Windy about the Baradar capture.

It’s Extremely Important We Don’t Torture Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar

He can’t be tortured if he’s still free and having success with his jihad.

A Taliban spokesman in Afghanistan told The Associated Press that Baradar was still free, though he did not provide any evidence.

“We totally deny this rumor. He has not been arrested,” Zabiullah Mujahid told the AP by telephone. He said the report was Western propaganda aimed at undercutting the Taliban fighting against an offensive in the southern Afghan town of Marjah, a Taliban haven.

“The Taliban are having success with our jihad. It is to try to demoralize the Taliban who are on jihad in Marjah and all of Afghanistan,” he said.

Fortunately there appears to be a nearly unlimited supply of second in command types that the US can capture or liquidate whenever soldiers or drones make things a bit awkward back on the home front.

If there weren’t a Taliban we would have to create one. Perhaps we did.

We can produce him right we have proof because if we lied about getting him that would be a PR nightmare. Just what would we have to gain?

Assuming we do have him this guy is high profile if we torture him that would make the news world wide.

If there weren’t a Taliban we would have to create one. Perhaps we did.

It keeps nagging at me that the name Al Quaeda has almost entirely dropped out of any discourse about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now it is Taliban this and Taliban that. Have we run out of Al Quaedas?

How does this all go? If the captured Taliban are tortured, then there will be more jihadis who will hate us more, right? But, if the jihadis blow up western people and things, the westerners aren’t supposed to dislike them? The arithmetic doesn’t add up.

So we were at war with the Taliban and not al Qaeda all along?

Have we run out of Al Quaedas?

Maybe after 8 years the word Al Quaedas has been poll tested and they found that Americans upon hearing the word were changing the channel?

Let’s see. He’s been in custody for about a week? 3d grade arithmetic problem: 183 waterboardings/day times 7 days equals how many waterboardings?

Hear! Hear! ( in a British accent)

I thought we wanted to give the Taliban a seat at the table? Are we forcing them to sit?

Wouldn’t surprise me at all.

Perhaps he is in no shape to be shown right now. If they did torture him it was right away (to get the intel) – it would not be as valuable after everyone knew he was caught.

PS – the “marry afgan girls” or whatever link from Google is sick. Nice text parsing on the site by Google to “figure out” what ad to place. Really sick.

seconded

Gimme a link! Gimme a link!

PR is what the admin gains. Can retract (see page 8) a few days from now when everyone gets focused on “missing white girl.”

PR spin is all that the corps have left u.s.

Here is a bit more, on the pragmatic front, as to why they shouldn’t be torturing Baradar and some things to think about with respect to his capture.

The AP report (via TPM it can be found here ) on the capture goes to Michael Semple as one of their sources. Semple “was expelled from Afghanistan in 2007 by President Hamid Karzai for negotiating with midlevel Taliban commanders when he worked for the European Union.” His take on Baradar is that

…Baradar was known to be a “pragmatist” who could be prepared to enter into some kind of talks with the United States.

“If he could get guarantees, he would be willing to negotiate,”

Baradar is supposedly the guy, too, who came up with the code of conduct for the Taliban that got some press earlier. If Afghanistan is going to go through a reconciliation process and have talks with the Taliban, this isn’t a guy you torture and disappear.

If the Army gets a reputation for announcing they capture people when they haven’t well I don’t see how you can spin that good.
The average person might forget but the Red Cross will ask about him, as will Spencer I’m sure the Army just can’t say in the age of video tape nope we never said we caught him.

This situation should allow things to focus on reason.

It is a significant opportunity for rational behavior, on everyone’s part.

Spend US taxpayer money to buy him, the American way and protect corp oil interests as we have done for decades? Real rational behavior?

Not quite what I had in mind, James.

Too much hopiness, prolly.

;~(

On the other hand …

I’ve scribbled some notes …

Horizontal organization… not only does his capture mean nothing, he knows nothing.

The Pentagon is, after all these years, as an organization (vertically integrated), STILL too stupid to win a war against ‘rag-tag’ horizontally organized guerrilla groups and it ALWAYS will be.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/world/asia/16intel.html

Oil?

Continue Americas instilled addictions by corporate design brainwashed and yes, “retarded,” minds…….

My .75 cents worth of fact opposed to wasting .75 cents of every dollar America spent on gasoline for generations. TORTURE!

Or uranium …?

Please don’t try to disillusion the vaunted U.S. military, that thinks they’ve captured the highest ranking 4-star general. /s

Don’t you mean the “virtuous, … vaunted and generally victorious … U.S. military”?

Clarity is all, eCAHN.

;~DW

R u FOOLISH????? America’s policy is controlled and dictated by the need for oil? You may not see a nexus here between terrorist and oil, but they the terrorist, sure as hell do and understand it quite well.

America still ignores the connection, brainwashed by corporate media!

Hell the Brits considered President Washington a terrorist and insurgent and they for sure would have tortured him, if captured!

Alliteration so early in the day. I’m impressed.

True.

Proof positive that there is no justice.

Canada (27.9% of world production) and Australia (22.8%) being the largest producers and Kazakhstan (10.5%), Russia (8.0%), Namibia (7.5%), Niger (7.4%), Uzbekistan (5.5%), the United States (2.5%), Argentina (2.1%), Ukraine (1.9%) and China (1.7%)

I don’t think so.

A pernicious perversion that leaks out, periodically.

But I’m working on it, eCAHN, well, when, I wemember.

Justice, smesstice, we want Rapture!

I agree, and there’s some interesting spec on why – in connection with this major assault in Helmand – it comes out that Pak Intel, who supposedly could have caught Baradar at any time, have picked him up now – especially with all the talk of Afghanistan moving towards a conciliation process with the Taliban.

It’s probably wishful thinking, but if what has happened is that Baradar has been willing to have talks with the Pakistanis and Americans about negotiating – well, you can hope that Obama and McChrystal are realizing that the “do something that looks good and declare victory and leave” option isn’t necessarily as bad as it sounds, esp if the “leave” is military assault forces vs. consultants and lots of tendrils. We have a really horrible problem with human intel for so many of these extremist orgs – getting better ties with a more moderate section of the Taliban improves not just stability but also our intel.

I’ve read that Baradar has been working with the Pakistan security forces for years. (The ISI) He has been willing to negotiate with Karzai; Karzai doesn’t deny the talks, just says they are too sensitive to discuss publicly at this point. It doesn’t seem Baradar was hiding all that well; everyone knew where he lived and he even conducted an e-mail interview with Newsweek a couple of years ago. He was “captured” in ’01, but released by the US because Pakistan wanted him left free as a go-between. I think he is one of our dudes who just found out he’s going to be thrown under the bus.
Kinda like Saddam Hussein; we put him in power, we gave him the chemical weapons to gas the Kurds, we gave him what weaponry the Iraqis owned, and he simply couldn’t believe until the very day of “Shock and Awe” that the US was actually turning on him. No doubt he was thinking Rumsfeld was really his bro and just talking some smack in the schoolyard to sound tough. Hung him quick, too, didn’t we? Couldn’t have him talking in open court about where he got his biologicals from.
Likewise, Baradar is now finding out that his bros will turn on a dime when they need some “positive news” to report from the Endless War front to gin up support for the War Effort.

You mean like Abu Omar al-Baghdadi?

AFP today reports that Al-Qaeda chief in Iraq, Abu Omar al-Baghdadi, has been captured and arrested. The problem with this is that al-Baghdadi has already been reported captured, previously reported killed and even said to have never actually existed by the U.S. military.

On C-SPAN this morning the right-wingers refuse to give this administration any credit. According to them on the one hand the Obama administration is not fighting a good war on terror on the other hand they are killing too many terrorist and still on the other hand they need to capture more terrorist and keep them at Gitmo. Apparently so the perpetual war can continue.

Agreed.

And thanks, Mary, I’ll share that wishful thinking with you until reason dictates otherwise.

DW

The Taliban has oil? Enough for us to care about?

Ok the army has a cred problem.

I am not a student of this, but it would have been hard not to pickup the pipeline people have been talking about for the last 8 years.

I think it may even have something to do with reducing the dependance on EU energy from Russia or something like that.

The first casualty of war is Truth.

Is the prez of Baylor allowed to involve himself in outside activities, like being active in Xtianist actions? If not, let him rot at Baylor.

I would imagine that a university prez can find an excuse for every kind of outside activity.

new post up…

And, just like in the past, this is really, really, really, going to shut down the Taliban.

As we speak there are probably about 6 “candidates” to replace him.

How about this posit?

Whatever “stability” we bring to Marjah, the only way to hang on to it and keep the Taliban/insurgents from retaking the place, is to keep OUR troops parked there, in substantial numbers. Is Obama ready to do that?

In fact that little equation applies to the whole fucking country.

This is the 5 o’clock follies redux.

To put it another way:

“There’s light at the end of the tunnel!” was bullshit coming from bush supporters, and it’s bullshit coming from an Obama supporter, too.

Taliban, al-Qaeda or whatever name is most popular at the time being used to identify the enemies who are at odds with the American way of life ™. The MSM seems to know that as transcribers of the daily occupation journals that it is the concepts we are fighting. Back when al-Qaeda was the label, because of bin Laden and the obvious Saudi connections, the Taliban was guilty of being willing hosts to the bad guys.

Once the term al-Qaeda came to be applied to every aggressive follower of Islam from Manilla to Mozambique then, we can assume, the military had to have a more obvious Afghani enemy of choice so that they didn’t have to justify failing to expand in places had little to do with Afghanistan. So we round back to the indigenous folks, the Taliban, under the guise of looking for what used to be fanatical religious conservatives and are now probably so commingled with drug lords and other marginalized and dangerous people in the country that the word Taliban becomes a term for those Afghanis that benefit from not being American sympathizers.

yeah, BS is about right for you, but the Raven already has rapped upon your dammed door.

WORD! As if running a fine play in a fucked game of war merits any praise. How does his capture bring the war any closer to ending?

And you’re wrong about torture: the CIA is banned, not JSOC. Then there’s Army Field Manual Appendix M (iirc). Then there’s just flat out ignoring the law and sending the message, “We’re gods among men, above the law, don’t fuck with us.” And as each side is playing the same insane game, based on the same fear of the Other, there’s no end intended. War is just what we do, no questions asked about that.

First it was al Qaeda, now we’re supposed to be elated that a Taliban commander has been captured? Is that because there were only 100 al Qaeda there? Never mind what the populace wants, the bad guys killed some of us good guys, we have to avenge their deaths, right?

How does this “motherfucking success” bring the war any closer to the end of convincing the Afghans that we know better how to rule their affairs?

The ultimate point of fighting the Taliban is to compel them to give up fighting and accept some version of a post-Taliban order in Afghanistan.

“To compel,” to force them to give up their self-sovereignty and accept our dominance? And then will we leave? Why should we, when we could be asserting full-spectrum dominance over energy-rich land? That would go against our sacrosanct self-interest.

They’re free to do as they like, to assert self-sovereignty, as long as it’s what we like, or we make life hell for them until they submit. Sounds like malicious myth-making in the first degree. Is that how the Bully Pulpit got its name?

I don’t share your enthusiasm for this blood sport, brother. In fact, it creeps me out. When has wiping off blood with blood ever cleaned a single bloody hand?

I don’t know, the Taliban has a reputation for denying mistakes and failures but that didn’t forestall this debate.

“Hopefully they’ll have the decency to apologize”…What fuckin’ planet do you live on Spencer…

It’s a noble thought but we’re dealing with the Cracker Caucus, Tea Baggers, Talibangelicals and the rabid racist fans of that “Big Dick” Cheney here in the US.

Sorry, but I don’t think an apology from these retards ever has a chance of happening in our life time. But like I said, nice sentiment…

I’m willing to bet he is already undergoing torture, and our intel agents are more than likely ‘participating’……,

Well, Mick, consider the possibility that no one has ever suggested that “they” SHOULD apologize?

By publicly calling them out, Spencer, has set the stage for others to do the same.

It is NOT a noble thought, it might actually be a human necessity.

DW

It’s also extremely important to the Pakistanis that the U.S. doesn’t torture him, either. It’s pretty bilateral, really, in the U.S. Pakistan has a reputation for torturing prisoners, in Pakistan, the U.S. has a reputation for torturing prisoners.
So everybody has a stake in not having the other guy abuse this prisoner.

Uh…if the CIA is involved, then so is torture. Hell, the CIA probably coaches/cheerleads the Pakis on torturing.

C’mon! The CIA doesn’t do anything BUT torture (or train torturers). Think Columbian death squads (all taught at the School of the Americas), think the Contras in Nicuaragua (taught at the School of the Americas and supported by the CIA). Think of ANY country in which the CIA has had ANY significant role (like Iran and the overthrow of the 100% democratically elected Mossedegh back in the 50s and his replacement by the CIA’s Shah…and his torture regime).

OF COURSE he is being tortured, by the Pakis and the CIA! That is what they do! It is what Amerikka stands for.

Always has.

Seriously Spencer you need to get off this obsession with detainee torture stuff.

Anyone that knows about this issue would tell you that if anything, Baradar is likely to be enjoying VIP treatment from his Pakistani “captors”.

Exactly who do you think was protecting him all these years? It’s the same guys that are taking credit for his “arrest”.

This whole thing is likely an elaborate ruse to enable Baradar to be part of US exit talks with the Taliban.

AFter all, it is hard to keep talking to someone who you cannot meet without subterfuge.

For anyone who believes that this was some kind of a real operation that nabbed this guy, I have this bridge to sell you…

Well…Afghanistan doesn’t have any valuable natural resources for the US to steal so on that level they are OK.

Oh, forgot, there is this major oil/gas PIPELINE that the US has been trying to FORCE on the Afghanis (via US energy companies and for US corporate profits) for YEARS, even before the 9/11 excuse to move in and try and really really force the pipeline on the Afghanis.

It always comes down to oil/gas. One way or another, the US has god-like rights to everyone else’s land and resources so we can keep living in McMansions, drive gas guzzlers, use incandescent bulbs, etc. If anyone even thinks of doing what is actually best for their own people (and by extension, against US corporate profits) then it is invasion and bombing time baby!

It might not be all that bad if you’re right about this.

It’s kind of hard to agree with this stuff about the US doing all this over an imagined pipeline project that would not have anything to do with our energy needs.

And there was that time that they said they had killed Baradar …

http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1078423.html

I’m trying to find a link to support it, but I also remember seeing once upon a time something about the US having him early on and releasing him bc of ISI requests, a la the waves of Pakistani Taliban we let leave in connection with our invasion. Since I can’t find anything on it linkable and credible right now, I’ll hod that in abeyance.

Except for a few, most posts above are semi-informed flailing.

Mullah Baradar is like the Dick Cheney of the Taliban, the real executive. He has been controlling the Taliban resurgence from the safe haven provided by the Pakistani military establishment, through the ISI.

Did you all miss the memo from last week that the Pakistani army chief Gen. Kayani was gloating about the sucess of his proxy force and how he is now magnanimously offering his organization’s services in mediating with the Taliban?

Think about this – if the US were to seriously talk to the Taliban, without embarassing the Pakistani Generals, what better way to do this than to have the fugitive chiefs “in custody” of their patrons?

The Pakistani Generals get to control the talks process this way and let the US save face. Plus, the Taliban know that if they were to get too extreme, the Pakistanis can “arrest” more of them from their safehouses in Karachi and other parts of Pakistan.

Thanks for explaining it to me. (smile)

I think “most” of the comments above do get that very point and have already made it a few times. ??

It also jives with the Newsweek interview of Baradar last summer where they were asking him whether or not Pak intel was telling him that it wasn’t quite time yet for him to have his peace talks.

What the end run will be is still to be told (see above re: walking away from our press releases awhile back on killing Baradar, who apparently was still needed by ISI and couldn’t be written off yet) but the fact that one possibility that has a lot of circumstantial support is negotiations with Pakistan for a resolution that will let the US and the Taliban both makes some claims to “winning” something, while not further destabilizing Pakistan, isn’t in hiding or ignored.

The other “truth” though is that intel services do set up their own now and then and the game being played with Baradar in the middle isn’t necessarily one where his position with the Taliban trumps deals ISI has cut.

There’s no better way to demoralize the opposition than to show we are on to them and their plans and co-conspirators. Anyone who believes that torture is not warranted is drinking pc-flavored kool-aid. And where is the proof that we got all this good intelligence without having to torture Abdulmutallab? You’re living in a fantasy world if you believe that. In the immediate hours of the mullah’s capture it is essential that we use any means to get information that will save lives and demoralize the enemy.

When is everyone going to wake up and realize that Islamic terrorists hate our guts, want us to die, and will not think twice about killing or torturing their enemy? It’s not about how we react to them, but rather how to win this war. I would admit that Abu Graib was not helpful, but that doesn’t mean we can’t keep this under wraps and under better control. So how is the enemy (or our own liberals) to know what we may or may not have done to those that have been captured? That’s not anyone’s business, nor should that be disclosed, nor should the captured mullah be allowed access to any of his peers or lawyers until this war is over. The only game-changer here is to instill fear and respect to our enemy. That we will fight them and beat them at their own sick game. Does that make us animals too? So be it. But otherwise they’ll continue to laugh at us, disrespect us, and kill more innocent people.

you’re joking, right? you’re funny, right?

I’ve seen a lot of parodies of people advocating for ruthlessness, but this one is too broad.

People who support TORTURE, look so small and cowardly.

ON balance we have killed a lot more people over “this” than the so-called “terrorists”.

Does that factor into your equation?

Even a little bit?

Or do these people matter less than you?

Where is YOUR humanity, or do you intend to continue along without it?

Killed more people over “this”? What in the world are you talking about? WE ARE NOT MOTIVATED BY A HATRED TO TARGET INNOCENT PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT BELIEFS!

The fact that innocent people die in wars is an unfortunate, but inescapable reality. Collateral damage is not our fault. What are we supposed to do, bend over and ask for more? Not protect ourselves and let them scum walk all over us? If the islamic terrorists quit their sick campaign, there would be no innocent deaths attributed to our self-defense.

Humanity? What is so humane about suicide bombers that makes you want to defend them and their rights? How is it inhumane to take whatever actions are necessary to get actionable information to save other innocent lives? Do you really believe that enhanced interrogations have never produced tangible results? Ever hear of KSM and the foiled L.A. 911 plot?

You bleeding heart liberals are pathetic!! You stand on the sidelines and criticize those engaged in a war not of their choosing and defend the rights of your enemy. Where is your humanity?

I’m sorry I am so late in responding I was googeling FireDog Lake with “We’ve caught the Taliban Chief! Can We Go Home Now?” in frustration over this site ignoring an important story. Canadian Beavers comments on justifying killing little children may be the reason why. Look, when an army wants a bloodbath they certainty can get it. In Iraq General McChyistal fought as Mr. clean while al Qaeda was as bloodthirsty as possible,
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/11/egypt-2.html. Now in Afghanistan both sides have a strict code of ethics. Anyway I too hope that Mullah Baradar isn’t mistreated. However I hope for more I hope he is treated as a diplomat. He is known as a moderate by militant standards, and if wined and dined the Afghan War might not after all have end following currency collapse and Americans desperately trying to barter because they will have no real money due to whatever policy spending ever more money of war preparation and delivery continues to get ever greater extent. Anyway google”Peace may be inches away” and “We’ve Caught the Taliban Chief! Can We Go Home Now?”

I think the war can end if we join the call for negotiations. Instead of the call to try to put as much blame as possible on the US.
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