Julian Sanchez makes a wonderful observation about the Guantanamo lawyers:
Charles Katz really was involved in illegal gambling, but it’s his case that established a Fourth Amendment right to be free from warrantless wiretaps. Klansman Clarence Brandenburg really was advocating “revengeance” against Jews and African Americans (though in the latter case I’m paraphrasing)—but I owe him my right to express radical political views as long as I’m not directly inciting violence. Crucial Fourth Amendment cases protecting the sanctity of the home involved cocaine smuggling rings, marijuana growers, and thieves.
Many of them were, to put it mildly, unsympathetic characters whose “values” I would not want to be “shared” by high-ranking attorneys in the Justice Department. Fortunately, competent attorneys argued both sides of those cases, not because of their personal feelings about the defendants, but because the legal questions at the hearts of those cases had larger implications for the kind of country we’re going to live in.
I’m sure the FDL Lawfare Crew can add much to this, but I saw Ken Starr, of all people, making the case on ‘Countdown’ that we want to “encourage young lawyers” to follow in the tradition of defending controversial clients like the Guantanamo detainees. Marc Thiessen, upholding his deeply-felt commitment to embarrassing himself and the Washington Post, responds that there was no such backlash among lawyers to the cruel slights visited upon John Yoo and David Addington and Jay Bybee for creating legal pretexts for torture. Well, yes: Lawyers tend to like it when their colleagues uphold the law rather than figure out how to evade it.
A digression on Thiessen, because his piece is indicative of a juvenile conservative persecution complex. Yoo et. al., at the behest of Bush/Cheney/Tenet et. al., create a circumstance whereby U.S. personnel violate the Geneva Conventions and the Convention Against Torture, ratified by the U.S. Senate; place U.S. servicemembers under greater likelihood of being tortured themselves if captured by an enemy force; place CIA operatives, officials and contractors in legal jeopardy, as they are now; and, of course, set the conditions for fellow human beings to be brutalized. And the problem, as Thiessen sees it, is that people are too mean to John Yoo.



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I watched that interview and it didn’t make me feel one whit better disposed toward Ken Starr…or Lawrence O’Donnell for that matter. Behaving within the framework of reality shouldn’t be a laudable act, even for the GOP.
Aw come on, give credit where it is due.
Well, it made me feel better because at least both sides were defending our system of justice. A rigorous defense is a must in any system of justice. I was heartened to hear it on the MSM in primetime.
And a nice reminder that John Adams kicked it off early with defense of the British soldiers arrested after the Boston massacre.
What, I’m supposed to compliment Starr for behaving in a sane manner for a change? No. “Sane” is supposed to be the default position, not some unusual occurrence worthy of praise. They used to say in the Navy, “One ‘Aw shit’ ruins a whole lot of ‘attaboys’”. Ken Starr has far too many “aw shits” to earn praise from me for one mild “attaboy”.
The reason for this is quite simple. Cases that set legal precedent (like Katz and Brandenburg) are decided in appellate tribunals. And the winners at trial don’t appeal. That is, if Mr. Katz hadn’t been convicted, he probably wouldn’t have bothered contesting the search. Or if Mr. Brandenburg had been acquitted of criminal syndicalism, his speech rights would not have been resolved. Or if Mr. Miranda hadn’t been convicted, his right to counsel never would have been explored. Thus, because legal history is almost entirely limited to appeals, only those who have already been adjudged “criminals” are even capable of forcing the courts to define the rights discussed here.
I couldn’t agree with you more. I watched in credulity (yeah: I know I should be used to it by now) as Lawrence O’Donnell fawningly and sycophantically announced how ab-fab it was that the vaunted Ken Starr would grace us lowly serfs with his amazing presence to defend this.
Puh-leeze!! Ken Starr is a disgusting piece of doo-doo who cost this country far to much money wanking over Bill Clinton alleged sexual misdemeanors and uncovering every sordid detail of what happened with that there cigar. What a cretinous bottom-dweller. And I’m supposed to “praise” him NOW? WHY? Whatever for?
I don’t “get” why MSNBC hosts bend themselves into all kind of pretzels to praise the lowliest of the low Republic spooges, when they deign to come onto their shows to call out another Republic for behaving execrably.
Why is it that even so-called excessivly progressive (ha ha ha) shows like RM & KO can only prove their chops when Republics call out something?
Pull the other one. I thought the whole interview was disgusting, and in fact, I stopped watching it because I was about to bust a gasket.
Ken Starr??? UGH. Go away, Ken, hopefully where I never have to witness your ugly, lying mug again. That was a big waste.
Calling attention to the situation is good, but I don’t thank O’Donnell for how he handled it or who he asked on to interview. BAH!
Nice ‘nym. You have to be a hard core Trek fan to get that one. Kudos.
Hey Margaret…I hear what you are saying. I mean, Ken Starr? Pepperdine? ew.
Just chiming in to say, though, how astonishing it is for someone like Starr, our feelings for him aside, to publicly rebuke someone as loathesome and useful to the winger “cause” as Liz Cheney! I mean, don’t people fear for their life if they speak out vs. the Cheneys?
That’s why it’s noteworthy to me.
Yep! I was convinced that if they had been in the same studio, we would have been treated with a display of man love. NOT that there is anything wrong with being gay but there is something wrong with the absolutely disgusting deference O’Donnell displayed toward Starr. Yeah, he did something right. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, that doesn’t give it value or make it useful.
Noteworthy, yes. Absolutely. Worthy of praise? Not. Even. Close.
there’s two minutes worth of value and utility there, and don’t you deny it! *g* give the guy his two minutes of correct.
Torture was certainly reciprocated during the Vietnam flamingo-up. What are the numbers of captures of so-called NATO combatants in Afghanistan and the record of their treatment in captivity?
The only reason the rightwing is criticizing Liz Cheney and Bill Kristol is that they are about to upset the delicately balanced applecart that is the only-forward-looking DoJ: should Liz insist on looking back at the careers of the lawyers who are now implementing policies as odious as Bush/Cheney’s at DoJ, then their superiors at DoJ and the West Wing might just decide to review the war crimes committed.
Liz is exposing the tenuous and illegal arrangement that lets war criminals go free while other, new, war crimes are committed every day.
And I hated seeing ‘Countdown’ used to rehabilitate Ken Starr, who should have been disbarred long ago.
I’ll leave that to better people than myself. I’m not ready to forgive him for spending millions of dollars “investigating” what turned out to be made up accusations and then resorting to justifying the time and money by calling attention to a blow job. Not yet. Not just because he found fault with something Liz Cheney said. He even managed to praise both she and Bloody Bill while being critical of their ad.
Can I just say this? I didn’t interpret O’Donnell as “fawning” but as “diplomatic”. There’s a difference, but I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder…
Matthews would have been fawning.
Agreed.
Oh, I left a note for ya downstairs on the college thread…
Seconded.
Mr. Thiessen:
Should we hold those who may be innocent indefinitely, such persons have family and friends who are aware of what has happened to them by the hands of the US. Stories of the innocent being detained spread through a community and a region, creating an awareness of the injustice at the hands of the US. Thus, some of these family members and friends may “… join the battlefield to fight U.S. soldiers and our allies another day” in order to bring justice for their “disappeared” family member.
My guess is, should a foreign nation start detaining and locking up innocent US citizens; the family and friends of such citizens would join the fight to get their loved one back.
Mr. Thiessen, your view is even more radical and dangerous because it does not uphold the rule of law. Additionally, your view serves to keep on drawing more and more to terrorist causes against the US exponentially.
Should a Presidential speech writer-jouranlist, who advocates holding terrorists indefinitely, knowing their detention will recruit family members and friends who may go on to kill Americans, have any role in setting or speaking about U.S. detention policy? My hunch is that most Americans would say no.
Do other Presidential speech writers-journalists in question hold similarly radical and dangerous anti rule of law and anti American views?
See, there are other American and rule-of-law views, Mr. Thiessen.
We can agree to disagree. I felt that O’Donnell was as fawning (or more so) as Tweety has ever been. It was O’Donnell’s attitude that made me want to puke, but I was much more virulently in disagreement with any attempt (we can argue the semantics of how O’Donnell appeared to behave) to “rehabilitate” Starr and give Starr any credibility whatsoever.
I really take umbrage with any attempt to make Starr be some kind of “authority” (or whatever you want to call it) to whom we should look up and listen to. Please. Spare me.
Conservatives who seem to want to rant & rave 24/7 about Dumbocrats wasting their tax dollars need to start the clean up in their Augean stable, and one of the prime horse’s @$$es who pooped out a lot of waste of MY tax dollar is prize jerk-off Ken Starr.
UGH. Nevermore! There is nothing, nada, zilch, zip, zero, bupkiss that Ken Starr has to say to me that can carry any meaning whatsoever. Diplomatic or fawning… trow da bum out! BAH