Or: One state, two peoples, democracy, no excuses, some alternatives, possible divergences, it only matters in relation to the interests of the person/country looking at it. There are multiple futures possible.

What’s astounding is the fact that Bibi apologized for the ‘timing’ not the ‘substance’ of the message…! Tone deaf doesn’t even begin to sum it up…! 8-(

Cut off the trust fund baby for awhile. Let them learn some priorities in the real world. Like how the superpower-client state relationship works. We say jump, and they say how high. Not the other way around.

Somethings aren’t as complicated as all the insiders who know all the inside details make it sound. Let them be the arrogant little warrior state doing their ethnic cleansing thing on their own dime.

The announcement of the plan for 1600 new apartments is a flash in the pan. A trial balloon by the further-right Shas party to influence events.

The announcement is just a piece of paper with plans for future apartments. The apartments would be in already-Jewish Ramot Shlomo. See a map of Ramot Shlomo here:
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=31.810478,35.218047&spn=0.01,0.01&t=m&q=31.810478,35.218047

There are Jewish neighborhoods all around it, to the north and east are the various Pisgat Ze’ev developments, to the west the Ramot developments. Central Jerusalem is to the south, so it’s not clear that Ramot Shlomo is in “East Jerusalem”, where ever that might be. It is over the armistice “Green Line”, which may be where the idea comes from. But Ramot Shlomo is to the west of the Old City, which is the center of Jerusalem.

There are also Arab areas nearby, Shuafat and Beit Hanina. See the map at the link, the geography is complex.

The main thing to keep in mind is that Ramot Shlomo is already a Jewish neighborhood.

Now thatIf and when the two-state solution dies is dead and the horrific choice really is the end of a Jewish state or the end of a democratic state, so many writers who wrung their hands over every difficult choice Israel had to make and found it easier to condemn those who urged those difficult choices to be made will suddenly find themselves denouncing the inaction of the past that their irresponsible intellectual choices encouraged.

Fixed.

Oh, speak of the devil, and a Hasbara-puppet pops up…

The main thing to keep in mind is that Ramot Shlomo is already a Jewish neighborhood.

Hasbara-code translator: “neighborhood” = “settlement”. And that’s sort of the whole point, isn’t it? Supposed to be a settlement freeze on.

This morning Bill Kristol thought Biden and Clinton were all wrong to bring it back up, since it was made all better with that apology. The US is blowing it all out of proportion -according to him.

It’s all just smoke and mirrors. Israel is clearly and systematically ridding the globe of those in its path. The only goal of Israel is the creation of Eretz Israel (Greater Israel). Look it up on Wiki. Everything that has occurred since 9/11 is an intentional land/resource grab and ethnic cleansing action, initiated by “The Crazies” as articulated by the likes of Myrav Wurmser.

There is no reason to question that this is in fact a conspiracy. They articulate it repeatedly in screeds like the PNAC manifesto and comments/actions from the likes of Feith, Libby, Fleischer, Ledeen, Pearl, Wolfowitz, Rove, Rhode, Cheney, Rummy, Kissinger, etc. There is no crime that Israel can commit that the US will punish. There is no amount of alleged aid that we will not send them. There is no limit to the munitions and missiles and fighters we will give them, and there is no obligation for them to pay back their “loans” from us, EVER.

The US (GHW Bush’s Shadow Government) and Israel were in fact co-conspirators at the outset, commencing with the Lewinsky/Clinton takedown through 9/11 and beyond, but now Israel is blackmailing the piss out of the Shadow Government Gang, and is 100% in charge. This is not some wild assed-guess. This is a confirmed fact.

All apparent protestation to Israel’s actions is purely theatrical – designed only for appearance sake, and actually scripted by the co-conspirators precisely as it is to appear, then disappear, from their controlled-media headlines.

They told Biden exactly what to say, and when to say it. Any appearance of conflict between the US and Israel is purely contrived. Israel owns and controls the entire charade.

Roll out the sternly worded speeches.

Did Biden really say the U.S. troops are fighting in Pakistan? And there weren’t headlines on that?

undermines the security of our troops who are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

So, Rahm really is in charge.

He is as Mossad as they come. Study the history of his terrorist father and his own military service – for Israel! He was going to be the acting president whether Hillary or Obama allegedly “won.”

My friend Daniel Levy has forgotten more about Israeli politics than I’ll know and he writes that Netanyahu may be the last best hope for the two-state solution. For the life of me I just don’t understand the logic. As best as I can understand, Daniel believes Netanyahu’s obstructionism, combined with statebuilding efforts from Salam Fayyad in the West bank, will strengthen international support for… what? Imposing a solution on Israel?

Imposing a solution might be the only way. Without the hope of a fair 2 state solution the NeoCons can’t claim Israel is a Democracy anymore. America after all gave its immigrants the right to vote after they pass their Citizenship tests. That and any kid born here is a Citizen.
When you consider the Palestinians were there first and in land now controlled by Israel but still are not citizens then popular support in America will vanish.
We do have more Muslim’s in America now than Jews its only a matter of time before their voices start impacting elections.

Very nice catch. I thought Bush said we could not send troops into Pakistan has something changed?

BTW, the buzz in the oil investor world is that Israel’s going to attack Iran.

Hijacking ’60s, Lebanon ’80s, Somalia ’90s, Iraq, Afghanistan, Parkistan…

“Starting to get dangerous for us?”

So wrong, apartheid, in so many ways

“Two states, two peoples, no alternatives, no obstructions, no choices, no divergences, nothing else matters.”

Yes and No.

“the horrific choice really is the end of a Jewish state or the end of a democratic state”

One secular state. One democracy, Many peoples. No alternatives, no obstructions, no choices, no divergences, nothing else matters

You’ve got it backwards. The U.S. is Israel’s client state for all practical purposes.

Besides Israel had quite a MIC of its own. No telling who they’d sell weapons to if the U.S. cut them off.

Talked to a professor friend of mine and on her last visit to east Africa, Kenya specifically, she said the American military is very visible in that part of the world.

Feith, Libby, Fleischer, Ledeen, Pearl, Wolfowitz, Rove, Rhode, Cheney, Rummy, Kissinger, etc. There is no crime that Israel can commit that the US will punish. There is no amount of alleged aid that we will not send them.

Feith has been called the Stupidest Man on the Planet I believe Wolfowitz,, Rummy, Darth your not talking about a brain trust everything these guys touched has gone bad.
Maybe the way to peace is to let the other side keep messing up? The economy stays bad how long can aid for Israel last politically? After two wars just how many years will go by before America sends troops into another stupid war?
Israel is throwing all its cards and cash down on a bet where Recession and Defeat in 2 wars should trump even Neocons, Rahm in the White House, and the Israel lobby.

I think that is the most likely scenario. The question remaining is how long a quasi-apartheid state called Israel will exist before demographics and international opinion force a change? The dream of a two-state solution faded during the last decade as the U.S. turned a blind eye to the Zionist crescendo.

With the announcement of their new fleet of enormous UAV drones that can reach Iran, that is the obvious conclusion: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100221/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_drones

Israel can’t do that without involving the US directly, imo

“Incompetence” is a ruse. It is NEVER the correct explanation for anything that occurs. They plan well in advance to use incompetence as an excuse to get their way. There will be moments to Feith built in Israel. He did exactly as he was instructed from above.

Crap those guys thanks to Bush are connected to the NeoCons and Israel. High oil prices have been linked to every Recession since WW 2. We are already in a Recession now. But on the good side a further economic downturn before the election could force both sides to support a jobs bill.
GOP and Dem have lousy poll numbers the GOP is worse than us despite being out of power during a Recession.
This is the first time ever that the party in power has not dropped lower than the other party during a Recession.
The GOP’s numbers should drop lower as the economy gets worse at somepoint the GOP needs to go Left, pull a coup or face extinction.

Why not? Israel under Netanyahoo is quite likely just to call the U.S. bluff.

It started to get dangerous for the Palestinians a long time ago, guess that doesn’t matter.

I meant if Israel does hit Iran, we’re in the war too

Thanks for the link. I forwarded it to my investment person. Her firm is drawing up a plan for what to do with their accounts if/when it does happen. The article does not reveal how the new drone is armed.

Pulling a Shock Doctrine on America may have been a plan to break Unions and enrich the Rich. But look at the countries of South America where Shock Doctrines were pulled their economies are still recovering decades later.
Israel loses if America can’t afford Empire anymore.

Exactly. I was referring to what I thought you were saying, which is that, if asked, the U.S. would probably say no because of the vulnerability of U.S. troops in Iraq. But I think Israel won’t ask first, just do it, then the U.S. will have no choice but to ‘finish’ the job.

Nice seeing you again Plunger its been awhile.:)

But I think Israel won’t ask first, just do it, then the U.S. will have no choice but to ‘finish’ the job.

Obama gets us into a third war we might as well give the GOP the next election.

that does matter

Two states, two peoples, no alternatives

As I keep pointing out the two state solution has been dead since the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by a Jewish extremish on November 4, 1995. Spencer is blowing smoke. The West Bank has been bantu-ized. Israelis talk about apartheid but somehow that is considered fringe talk in this country. Go figure.

It needs to be kept in mind that Labor and Kadima, Israel’s center-left, were behind the atrocities in Gaza. Netanyahu is considerably further to the right than they are and he has elements in his Cabinet that are even further right. I am not kidding or trying to be anything more than descriptive when I say that Netanyahu is a fascist. It is just weird to think that Jews can’t be fascist. I mean look at the settler movement. State corporatism is only one pole of fascism. The other is an extreme nationalism. This is what we see in Israel.

Despite Spencer’s angst, there has always been a contradiction between democracy and Israel’s definition of itself as a Jewish state. Such ethno-religious identities are inherently racist. Just think how it sounds when our own nutcases demand that America be called a White Christian nation.

So what do you see in the future for the area?

We cut off Israel’s aid we can change things I admit politically its not possible…now but unemployment at 15% then yes it is.
Given that people are still losing their homes and nobody here thinks Obama has or will save the economy with what he done so far 15% unemployment is very possible.

The US controls most of the air space in that part of the world. Between us and the Saudis with our AWACS there is nothing that flies there that is not on or should be on our radar screens. We will be seen as complicit no matter what.

Oil would spike. It’s already at $81/bbl. It should be priced at $35 but speculation by Goldman and Barclay’s keeps it irrationally high, but that’s another story. At $90, the world economy tanks. So we really aren’t that far off the edge. An attack on Iran would push oil considerably higher than that. Non-Gulf states would benefit. But Gulf states including the Saudis would not be able to move their product. Even the threat of a closure of the Straits of Hormuz would cause insurance underwriters to refuse to insure tankers and without insurance those tankers won’t move. The rest of the world, Europe, China, Japan, even us, would view the Israeli action badly. It is perhaps the one thing the Israelis could do that would break their link with Washington. Nobody would like the country that started a worldwide depression.

thanks

What ever happened to all those oil tankers the oil speculators were sitting on keeping them docked just outside of port?

Despite all the PR spinning by the Obama Administration, we are still heading toward Depression. Depression will change a lot of what has been the status quo. Hopefully some good will come from it but the costs will be extremely high on all of us. If Israel attacks Iran, the timetable to Depression will be accelerated. The costs of empire will likely cause us to retrench. The West Bank and Gaza are Israel’s empire, albeit not a very big one. Israel could be looking at a changed relationship both with us and with the Palestinians. It always comes down to what you can live with. With our support, Israel has been able to live with apartheid. With us gone and depression in Israel as well, Israelis are going to find that the injustice they could live with now they can’t afford in the future.

“Dangerous” can be replaced by “Silly” if so inclined. That is, “It’s silly for us to continue to support ANY country – good, bad, old, new” that supports the kind of policies that Netanyaya is trying to implement.

I believe the US should tell Netanyaya’s government straight to their faces – “We’re done supporting you…WITH ANYTHING.. That includes food, water, guns, airplanes, parts, nuclear materials. You can BUY NOTHING from us and we’re done sending you ANY MONEY – NONE.. You’re on your own. We’re gonna walk away.

…and don’t forget the assassination of Bobby Kennedy by Sirhan Sirhan, whose motives were anger at the US support for Israel during the JFK administration and again during the 1967 war.

The colonization of the West Bank is effectively irreversible. Successive Israeli governments have all worked toward this end. The settlements are so deeply entrenched that their dismantlement is near impossible, short of international intervention.
There is no viable pro-peace political party in Israel. The major parties support the settlement policy of this Israeli administration. The purpose of this policy is to deny the Palestinians the right to self-determination. It is meant to deny them the right to statehood.
But international pressure is mounting. EU foreign ministers reaffirmed that the EU would not recognize unilateral Israeli changes in the pre-1967 borders. They are insisting that the parties live up to existing obligations. If the US follows suit, perhaps there can be an imposed solution.
Barring that, the situation is bleak.

Thanks!

Remember, all of the dots connect here:

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/3820

This is why we, as the front of the new left, need to get rid of religion from our stock.

There is no solution to this. There never will be as long as it’s a matter of religion. In the West Wing they gave the whole “no because it’s very hot and there’s not much water” excuse..

Bulltshit plain and simple.

If that’s all it was this would have been solved decades ago.

But no you have insane Jewish settlers that believe their god gave them this land. And even when the Israeli military tries to remove them, they fight back tooth and nail.

you have a ton of Russian and eastern European Jewish Emigrees. People who lived under the worst brunts of Anti Semitism in years. People like Avidor Lieberman. People who want the entire Palestinian population driven to the sea in the name of power and their god.

And then you have the Palestinians themselves. Most of em just want peace, but like on the Israeli side they have a hardcore religious sect that must get rid of all Jewish interlopers on their land. their willing to listen to the Theocratic regime in Iran and use whatever violence is necessary to achieve those goals, no matter how many of them die in the name of it. To them being a Martyr, making your own children Martyrs is better than living.

It’s religion, and anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something.

Religion poisons everything, and we of the left need to get as far away from it as possible.

The U.S. has always been an avid supporter of Israel. Unfortunately, it’s always been a one way street. It’s a dysfunctional relationship for the U.S. because Israel has spied on us, attacked one of our ships, and has used our military to shield themselves from adversaries they provoke. I say it’s time to dump Israel. It’s a bad alliance for us.

You don’t think the oil speculators unloaded their oil at current prices it costs a bunch just to keep oil tankers just sitting there and then used the cash to to buy more oil from the next load the tankers brought in expecting to recoup their losses?

I saw the comments you have a series of Diaries there but wait if Israel attacks Iran then turn those comments into a series of Diaries and relate it to the current situation each of those comments deserve their own diary.
And if Israel attacks Iran and oil prices go up you will have a huge audience.

Is speculation driving commodity prices to crash?
Published on: March 03, 2010 at 05:50

No part of the markets are trading on fundamental values, nor on forward business expectations. They are instead trading as “hot money” repositories where speculators rotate in and out of various instruments literally on a minute-by-minute basis.

This is how crashes happen.

Oil went to $150 in 2008 even though demand was cratering. It then collapsed to under $40. It is now double that, even though we have a record supply on hand, to the point that tankers are sitting around full of crude with nowhere to unload it to, and nobody to buy at the price paid. Yet the price continues to go higher.

http://www.commodityonline.com/news/Is-speculation-driving-commodity-prices-to-crash-26113-3-1.html

My Bold Motherless Scrot Munchers!

Oil Stored On Tankers Is Up 71% Since April
It costs at least $28000/day to rent an oil tanker, so it’s not really free to buy oil and store it. It would cost $10.2 million to hold 2 million barrels …
http://www.businessinsider.com/oil-stored-on-tankers-is-up-71-since-april-2009-6

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=cost+to+rent+oil+tankers+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

The recent Gallup poll showed support for Israel in the U.S. is at an all-time high, and support for the so-called Palestinians is very low. Israel is far more popular in the U.S. than is Obama. His presidency is precarious enough without taking yet another unpopular position.
Remember the celebrations in the streets of Ramallah and other Arab towns in Israel after 9-11. Israel is on the front lines of defense of the West against Islamic jihad. Most in the U.S. know this. Only the lunatic fringe of anti-Semites believes there is any possibility of a U.S. sell-out of its surrogate in the Middle East.

Any bets big banks are counting these oil tankers as assets at full value not market value now but the full value at what they would want to sell the oil for?

The banks need a war or a very quick full economic recovery to get those prices. Heck they would need an economic boom!

linky?

Just google Gallup and American support for Israel. It’s very recent.

Not if, but when that occurs, the Air Force will have already shut down the entire Internet, blaming it on Iran – the false flag premise for the alleged “counterstrike”

Maybe or they could blame Iran for starting the war by claiming they attacked us its what the army normally does and if thats the case they would want the Righty Blogs at least to have net service to inflame the base.

The support of the US public for Israel exists only because of the news vacuum imposed by the Israelis combined with self-censorship of the US media. The biggest club that Obama could possibly wield would be the threat of a US/UN fact-finding mission to Gaza combined with a demand that foreign journalists be allowed to report without restriction in whatever part of Israel or the occupied territories that they choose. Gaza,the apartheid wall and the attitudes of the “settlers” are Israel’s dirty little secrets, and shedding light on them would open the eyes of many ignorant Americans as to what is really transpiring over there. All said, our support is built on a foundation of profound misinformation and ignorance. Burst that bubble and it’s all over.

You are underestimating the intelligence and awareness of the American people. The has been no shortage of Israel-bashing in the media. But most people in the U.S. realize that the Gaza war was caused by Hamas, a fundamentalist Muslim group that as in its charter a call for the murder of all Jews worldwide, and more than 8000 rockets launched into southern Israel for years before Israel finally responded. We in the U.S. would not be so patient if rockets were being launched into San Diego from Mexico. As for the accusations of war crimes, we recognize that our soldiers could be subjected to prosecution and false accusations based on actions taken in Iraq and Afghanistan, so we are not going to allow such an unfair standard to be inflicted on Israel.
You should be cautious before accusing the American people of ignorance. It would be more accurate to say that the small minority that is attacking Israel suffers from prejudice of the oldest sort.

I assert the tide has turned, google it.

Nope, when the American people are fully introduced to the hilltop youth and all the rest of the fundamentalist ugliness of the ultras in Jerusalem and the WB, it’s not gonna play here.

This morning on “Meet The Press” even Tom Friedman(!) was critical of our one-sided relationship with Israel. The USA is giving them massive military aid, we are stopping the Goldstone Report from being sent to The Hague, etc. yet the Israeli government won’t do one single thing we ask of them.

So what’s wrong with “imposing a solution on Israel?” There’s a price to be paid for total intransigence… and that is all we have seen from them since the Carter days.

well, several things, starting with 1) you can’t… and moving to 2) why would you try when you can’t impose a solution on the guys that the Israelis are fighting with?

I’m sick of hearing about this. Since I can remember, this has been going on. Tell the car companies to make vehicles that don’t require gas/oil…they’ve got a yr…get it done or go out of business. Tell the energy companies in this country, they’ve got a yr to figure out how to run this country without outside oil. They’ve got a yr or they are out of business. You think they wouldn’t get that done!!! Of course they would. Then take all the troops out of Afhanistan, Iraq, etc, etc, etc. Stop funding Israel, stop buggering around in the politics of middle eastern countries. Let them figure it out. If they eat each…so be it. I know it’s much more complicated than that, and obviously I don’t have any family in either country or I wouldn’t be such a big mouth about this. But I am SICK of hearing about this. The countries over there are insane, and overly religious. We have no business being a part of that! We are nutty and overly religious here in our own country and are making a bigger mess of it every single day….not matter who is in the WH. So WTF makes us think we’ll do any better over there. I’m all for securing our country and it’s citizens….but it seems like all we really do is mettle around in other peoples business and piss them off….AND we don’t get anything productive done. So why do it?????????????????????????????

The Jews in the West Bank are frequently demonized, but the overwhelming majority are no different from Jews living elsewhere. Some are secular and some are more religious, but even the most religious have much in common with the religious Christians of the U.S., and that’s one of the reasons for the friendship between the two groups. Whatever one’s view of religious Jews and Christians, it requires a peculiar kind of myopia to see them as similar to Muslim jihadists who celebrate suicide bombers as martyrs. Most Americans see the difference, which is why, despite the occasional policy disagreement between two friendly governments, Israel will always be seen favorably by the majority of the American people.

Buddy, the guys I’m talking about ain’t ever gonna be seen favorably by Americans…and seeing Israel favorably is far from seeing favorably everything that Israel is doing.
It’s not gonna be long before support for Israel’s existence is clearly separated from support for assholes and racists infecting Israel. How long would Israel’s Foreign Minister stand up if spotlit in the US media?

Lieberman is not nearly as hawkish as he is portrayed. He favors the creation of a Palestinian state and would trade away land within the Green Line to the Palestinians, in exchange for the large settlement blocs in the West Bank, to accomplish it.
All religions have their fundamentalists, but I know you see the difference between the Jewish and Christian fundamentalists, on the one hand, and the jihadist death cult that presently is gaining ground in the Arab world.

But I agree with you that there is a difference between seeing another country favorably and agreeing with every decision made by the government of the other country. A European can disagree with U.S. policy in Iraq and Afghanistan but still view the U.S. favorably. An American can disagree with a policy decision of the Israeli government and still view the Jewish state favorably. The majority of people who tend to haunt this site, however, don’t fall into such a category. There is an obsession.

Sure, tell me all about Lieberman’s plans for a Palestinian state and everything that he wants to trade away.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/945299.html

Would it involve trading about 15% of Israel’s citizenry?

He stinks like a old dead fish and there was a time when Israel would have things like him banned from holding office.

It is hypocritical for Israel to allow unabashed enemies of the State like Ahmed Tibi and others like him to be in the government while banning the Kahane movement. Banning Lieberman, who favors an exchange of land and population between Israel and a Palestinian state, would be particularly undemocratic. I disagree with his willingness to carve yet another Arab/Muslim state out of land that belongs to Israel, but if such a state is created, it’s difficult to fault his argument that Israeli Arabs cannot have both citizenship in the Palestinian state and the benefits of being Israeli. They will have to choose.
All this is wildly theoretical. The Palestinians aren’t even close to getting their act together to form a state. Abbas and Fayed hate each other, and neither has any real constituency. Hamas will take over within days if the IDF leaves the West Bank. That’s an obstacle that cannot be surmounted.

I’d say it’s less likely than new settlements being built in E. Jerusalem.

Crazy Republicans were in cahoots with the Crazy Israelis.

Dems are in charge now and, believe it or not, they’re trying to help the Israelis create a stable M.E., so Israel won’t become a horrible one-state solution with apartheid and no Democracy and with world opinion against them.

But, as I said, there are Crazies in Israel who have a very warped view and they want a continuation of the current structure.

15% unemployment is very possible

Unemployment next time is more likely to be about 9.2% than 10.3%.

Given those awful conditions it makes me think somebody named Bush has been talking to Israeli Crazies.

spare me the tears for the poor banned Israeli racists. There was a time when Israel meant to stand for something decent.
A small shtick dreck such as Lieberman simply stinks up the place.

I’ll happily see his ass transferred.