Maybe this will clarify my earlier point about Tzipi Livni. She’s a right-of-center Israeli politician who speaks about peace as the fulfillment of a Zionist dream and the maintenance of a democratic state — with its demographically correlative obligation to divest Israel of Palestine — as central to the Zionist project. She does so without prompting, at least in English. She goes to AIPAC and she builds a constituency for a peace deal.
Netanyahu goes to AIPAC and gives a fiery speech about how the burden is all on the Palestinians and how he’ll never compromise on Jerusalem and how he’ll keep Israeli troops on the eastern border of any Palestinian state. Then he calls on the Palestinians to negotiate with him! If there was a Palestinian AIPAC, you could see a Palestinian Netanyahu telling it, “See? They want to leave us a rump state with no control over our destiny! It’s their fault! I say to them, why don’t you really negotiate without preconditions! We have been patiently building our state, thanks to the bravery and leadership of Salam Fayyad, giving the Israelis quiet from the West Bank for years, and what do they give us? I call on them them them them them to take the hard steps first!”
And you can see how counterproductive it is to lay out objections to final status negotiations and then call on the other fellow to make the first move. Not once did Netanyahu speak about the preservation of Israeli democracy. It’s not necessarily that he doesn’t want peace. It’s that he really wants peace on his terms, which is what others call “victory.” And that will encourage the Palestinians to seek the same thing — which in their case will eventually be a binational state. Doing nothing will inexorably mean the Palestinians get their way.



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I have come to believe what my dear friend Art Gish has said for years about the Israeli government and many Israeli’s. They do not want peace, just more territory and control over the water, and air in the neighborhood.
Art has spending several months a year in Israel for close to 20 years.
Israel does not want peace just more territory. Will continue to do what ever they please.
Spencer how many times have you heard Iran brought up at the Aipac Conference? Sure that it is thousands of times.
What I find so troubling on this topic is that we allow it. Once again our politicians doing what special interest dictates. How many times does it have to play out:
* Israel does something bad
* US scolds Israel
* Uproar over US criticizing Israel
* US apologizes and reaffirms “special relationship” with Israel
* US puts itself forward as negotiator of peace in the Middle East
It is laughable. We are so biased. We wonder why the Middle East hates us? When will the US begin to act on behalf of its own interests?
If we want to be the mediator, then we need to act like it and stop playing favorites. I know God forbid accountability. Something that is sorely lacking nationwide.
And Hillary goes there and swears we will stand by them no matter what they do. No way to get some justice.
He is not compromising at all he does not want peace. What he wants is for the Palestinians to be good slaves without votes and for them to keep giving up their land.
Bibi is not thinking about the future and the Palestinians faster population growth. Bibi wins elections based on fear and pretending to be strong.
Fear comes from oppressing a Palestinian population that Israel knows is growing faster than its own.
Pretending to be strong is to keep building houses.
Tell me Bibi your army did great in Lebanon/s do you really think you can keep this up forever?
So you seem to have determined that the root cause – no reason to dig any deeper – is “Israel does something bad”?
Israel like the GOP knows how to handle Blue Dogs.
I’ve seen various maps depicting the dwindling territory of the Palestinian peoples homeland. Then I saw a graphic depicting the loss of their land as follows; 1946, 1947, 1967, 2000, – side by side.
Amarica, WE, are a despicable, immoral, criminal nation.
As long as the US (and Israeli special interests) continues to help bankroll them, yeah. Their army can keep it up. God forbid the US ever realizes that being such ardent supports of Israel is diminishing their ability to act as any sort of impartial negotiator in any sort of peace between Israel and Palestinians.
I wish Emile Zola was still around.
Oh sure, Palestinians will ‘eventually’ get their way. Maybe in 100 years when they’re 90% of the combined pop. In the meantime, Israel has every intention, no matter who is in power, of keeping them suppressed.
Tzipi Livni is a former assassin for the Mossad. Not making that up.
If the only way to achieve ‘peace’ is to hand over half of Jerusalem to the Palestinians, it will never, ever happen.
I know a number of Israelis, personally, from spending some work-related time in the country from ’99-’02. Any peace process will be ultimately subject to a referendum and there is no way in hell Israelis will vote to split Jerusalem.
The best deal Palestinians could have gotten was the 2000 plan. Arafat shot that down. I think Israeli citizens could have been sold on that, although not everyone agrees they would have.
Pretending that Israelis will someday offer Palestinians their own state with a pre-’67 border serves nothing and no one.
There are quite a few assassins in the Israeli govt: some direct, some indirect.
Sorry, I was going for something benign, if you want I could use “deplorable”, “illegal” or “verging on war crimes”. Are those better choices?
Just like a teenager, if there are no ramifications for misbehaving, the child will just push their limits that much more. The US has been a very lapsed guardian.
Tragic Manicheanism
“The US has been a very lapsed guardian.”
Israel is US’s client state, not vice versa.
my lying eyes.
People who announce that they will “never compromise” can’t be negotiated with. I would think this was axiomatic.
Water is so seldom mentioned as regards this conflict that a person could be excused for complete ignorance of the issue.
Israel’s water deficit is a never ending problem and conflict over water rights was a large part of the origins of the 1967 war in which the Golan Heights along with many of the sources feeding the Sea of Galilee were siezed from Syria, who were diverting water for use in their territory that would have flowed into the Sea of Galilee.
So much for returning to pre-1967 borders.
The US needs to pull ALL financial aid to Israel at once. Hey, put it towards a small expansion of Medicaid. fuck, i wouldn’t give a shit if it all went to Nebraska.
Between the years 1797 and 1918 the Commonwealth of Poland ceased to exist, the country was as erased from history.
Not much succor in this for the Palestinian People, but don’t lose hope!
Basic fact: the Israelis are the invaders/occupiers in this conflict. The burden is on them to rectify the situation (which they will never do).
I’ve been predicting wars over water since 2000. But such gets little notice.
”
ew more for your chuck and huck piece
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/03/23/senators_pressure_obama_on_iran_sanctions
There was some strong pushback at Monday night’s AIPAC gala against the Obama administration’s call for further patience in waiting for the U.N. Security Council to enact a fourth round of sanctions on Iran. But it didn’t come from the Israeli side or the lobbying group itself: it came from two senior U.S. senators.
Senate leadership member Charles Schumer, D-NY, and moderate Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-SC, both passionately pledged to push this week for action on the Iran sanctions legislation currently awaiting a House-Senate conference. They directly contradicted Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s call for more time to allow the U.N. process to play out, a plea she made in remarks to the same group earlier in the day.
Comparing a delay in confronting Iran’s nuclear program with the WWII-era appeasement of Adolf Hitler, Schumer said there was no choice but to move forward with new Iran sanctions now.
“Diplomatic efforts have failed. We are too close (to a nuclear Iran) to simply continue those efforts,” said Schumer. “The U.S. must hit Iran first, on our own, with unilateral sanctions, no matter what the other nations of the world do. And we cannot wait, we must push those sanctions now … we cannot afford to wait for Russia or China.”
From the EW thread currently up top; h/T to Leen.
What he does is unacceptable lip service to a two state solution, so Israel does not have to acknowledge that the Palestinians and Israelis are all citizens in a single state, with a Palestinian majority.
You don’t need to predict any wars over water.
Water is at the center of the Israeli-Palestine dispute, and there have already been many wars.
Huck (Lindsay Graham) at Aipac conference directly contradicts Clinton “”Jerusalem is not a settlement. No government in Israel will ever look at Jerusalem as a settlement. And no government of the United States should ever look at Jerusalem as a settlement,” Graham said to raucous applause. “It’s the undivided capital of the state of Israel.”
Professor Juan Cole and the International Court of Justice etc would strongly disagree with Huck Grahams claims. “East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory”
http://www.juancole.com/
Tuesday, March 23, 2010
Top Ten Reasons East Jerusalem does not belong to Jewish-Israelis
Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu told the American Israel Public Affairs Council on Monday that “Jerusalem is not a settlement.” He continued that the historical connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel cannot be denied. He added that neither could the historical connection between the Jewish people and Jerusalem. He insisted, “The Jewish people were building Jerusalem 3,000 years ago and the Jewish people are building Jerusalem today.” He said, “Jerusalem is not a settlement. It is our capital.” He told his applauding audience of 7500 that he was simply following the policies of all Israeli governments since the 1967 conquest of Jerusalem in the Six Day War.
Netanyahu mixed together Romantic-nationalist cliches with a series of historically false assertions. But even more important was everything he left out of the history, and his citation of his warped and inaccurate history instead of considering laws, rights or common human decency toward others not of his ethnic group.
So here are the reasons that Netanyahu is profoundly wrong, and East Jerusalem does not belong to him.
BUT GRAHAM HAS CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED HE HAS NO RESPECT FOR INTERNATIONAL LAW, AGREEMENTS, ADVISORY OPINIONS, LET ALONE THE RULE OF LAW IN THE U.S.
Israel is under an obligation to terminate its breaches of international law; it is under an obligation to cease forthwith the works of construction of the wall being built in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, to dismantle forthwith the structure therein situated, and to repeal or render ineffective forthwith all legislative and regulatory acts relating thereto, in accordance with paragraph 151 of this Opinion”;
Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory
http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&case=131&k=5a
“Beef is for drinking, water is for fighting over”; I think you meant beer.
Spencer continues his tradition of nearly incomprehensible posts on Israel.
First, nobody goes to address AIPAC except to pander.
Second, Tzipi Livni was a major force behind the Kadima/Labor coalition’s pre-election shoot up of Gaza at the end of 2008.
Third, Israeli politics are so skewed to the right that center-right there would be extreme right anywhere else.
Fourth, “the maintenance of a democratic state — with its demographically correlative obligation to divest Israel of Palestine”. This is just code for what in South Africa was called apartheid. Democracy for the whites and bantustans for the non-whites. Ariel Sharon created Kadima precisely for this purpose. Livni remains one of the top people in Kadima.
I remember how the Western press tried to recast Sharon, the Butcher of Beirut, as a man of peace after his founding of Kadima. It is as laughable as Spencer’s treatment of Livni.
Presumably, because demographic trends favor the Palestinians? Probably does. But that’s so far in the future that I suspect Bibi, et. al., are just not interested. The thing that will hurt them in the shorter term is loss of U.S. support, which doesn’t look to be happening.
if you had any thought otherwise, you were wrong to hope.
one side fits all.
It’s only axiomatic if they have the power to not compromise.
The United States long ago forfeited the right to act as an honest broker anywhere in the world.
A pox on Netanyahu and Likud.
I did mean beer. Editing had expired before I could fix the typo.
I apologize to all the beer drinkers out there. Excluding those who dink Bud, Miller, Schlitz, etc. That’s not beer, it’s Horse Piss.
evidence?
Operation Cast Lead was apparently planned and initiated in large part to try to get Livni elected head-of-state in Israel. She’s as monstrous as Netanyahu.
Netanyahu, Livni and Lieberman. Now there’s a worldy, wise, compassionate trio of peaceniks. *spit*
There will never be a Palestinian state. They don’t deserve one. They have squandered too many chances, including rejecting the Peel Commission recommendation of 1937, the UN Partition Plan of 1947, the entire time period between 1948 and 1967 when Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt occupied Gaza, and there was no attempt to create a Palestinian state, the settlement brokered by Bill Clinton at Camp David in 2000, and Olmert’s offer in 2008. It’s obvious to anyone with eyes, ears and a brain that the problem isn’t the absence of a Palestinian state; instead, its the existence of a Jewish state.
Moreover, the Palestinians don’t need a state. There are more than 20 Arab/Muslim states already. Jordan is more than 60% Palestinian. That’s the Palestinian state.
By the way, I’m blocked from the Seminal because of the intolerance for dissenting views among the phony progressives who control it.
If you’re going to keep churning out shit such as this, no one is going to give a rosy rat’s ass if you’re blocked.
Either write more reasoned things or more clever bullshit.
If nobody cares if I’m blocked, why block me? And do you have anything substantive to write, or just empty insults?