Is it fair to conclude yet that Hamid Karzai has given up caring about the way he’s viewed in NATO capitols? On Thursday, frustrated with parliament’s reluctance to bless his brazen bid to control an independent elections watchdog, he delivers a paranoid and undignified harangue about the West’s secret machinations to control a country that it could care less about if there aren’t Soviets or terrorists involved. On Friday, he tries to walk it back to Secretary Clinton. And on Saturday?
President Hamid Karzai lashed out at his Western backers for the second time in three days on Saturday, accusing the U.S. of interfering in Afghan affairs and saying the Taliban insurgency would become a legitimate resistance movement if the meddling doesn’t stop. [snip]
At one point, Mr. Karzai suggested that he himself would be compelled to join the Taliban if the Parliament didn’t back his controversial attempt to take control of the country’s electoral watchdog from the United Nations, according to two of those who attended the meeting. The people included a close ally of the president.
On the presumption that Karzai is being accurately quoted — something his spokesman denies — this is starting to fall into some I-wish-a-motherfucker-would territory. A failed attempt at a power-grab calling the integrity of the next government into question leads Karzai to bandwagon with the Taliban? That’s like the guy at the Burger King angrily swearing that if he accepts my expired coupon he’ll be left with no choice but to give me unlimited refills. Let the Omar-Karzai negotiations begin! Can we throw in Ahmed Wali Karzai and a couple draft picks?
The governance effort in the south is about strengthening sub-national governance and creating credible, deliverable reachback to the ministries. Whether by design or by default, the effect is that it balances/reduces Karzai’s influence while bolstering the stuff he was supposed to be doing anyway in terms of making a material impact on Afghan lives. Obviously it’s a strategy that has its limits: Karzai still governs the country, appoints ministers, etc. (To say nothing of what sub-national governance means in an area, for instance, in which people self-identify as Taliban.)
He successfully stole an election — that should be a decisive verdict on his interest in a well-run Afghanistan. To the extent the U.S. has no choice but to stick with him, the current strategy of caring more about sub-national governance than Kabul governance for immediate-to-medium-term impact has its merits. It wouldn’t be such a terrible thing to dial down tensions, but if Karzai is just going to brazenly walk back his walkbacks, then it’s sort of pointless.



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He stole an election. He must be a Republican. And it is OK to steal an election if your are a R. But if he is a R, he could be cognitively unhinged.
He really sounds like a republican, if you substitute “tea party” for “Taliban”.
Boxturtle (And who taught this rube to rig an election?!? Geez, they’re laughing in Chicago!)
I’m confused. Would someone please remind me why we’re fighting in Afghanistan.
The US probably should not be taking sides in the Afghani civil war for much longer.
Irrelevant if he cannot police the country enough to collect taxes. AS the Taliban fully understand.
And remind me why we’re spending our treasure there when we’re in such a mess here?
“… the West’s secret machinations to control a country that it could care less about if there aren’t Soviets or terrorists involved.”
Uh, sorry, but that’s just patently false unless we’re going to accept propaganda as the truth. We were fiddling in Afghanistan long before the Soviets arrived. We continued to fiddle long after they left (and Gates knows this because he was in charge and admitted as much in his memoir). And our entry into Afghanistan in 2001 and very little to do with terrorists; our staying certainly has nothing to do with them as even the DoD says that they’re pretty much all gone.
And let’s not forget that for just as long as the West/US has been preaching about a strong central government in Kabul, we’ve been giving money and guns to assorted warlords…in effect undermining what we say is our stated purpose.
The last thing we’d ever allow is a democratic Afghanistan if the results don’t turn out just how we want them. Besides, find me a squeaky clean Afghan to lead the country who won’t feel the need to play all the parties looking for control (China, India, Pakistan, the US) off against each other because it’s the only way Afghanistan has ever been able to survive and i’ll show you an honest politician in the United States capable of being elected President.
I was gonna leave a snarky response about Karzai and Ratzinger, but this paragraph
Why in the fuck do we have “no choice but to stick with him? Our whole reason as I recall it (and all of you do too, unless you were born 9/12/01) was to get ObL, destroy his camps full of monkey-bars and target ranges and that was it.
Instead of a coherent strategy, we all know that our last Preznit launched Operation Inigo Montoya (TBogg™) and let the boil in Afghanistan fester, hoping that our NATO allies who were horrified at the 9/11 attacks would pick up the slack for the Nation-building that C-Plus Augustus made so much fun of Al Gore for in the 2000 election debates.
Now we’re stuck in a double quagmire, far worse than anything that happened in SE Asia, and no end in sight. Instead of using American forces to support American forces we’ve essentially outsourced everything but the actual patrols outside the wire (and that’s even questionable now) to “contractors” because the private sector (aka “free market”) could do everything better than the government, which now apparently includes soldiering. And not a single one of these contractors sees it as being in their interest to bring either conflict to a conclusion, whether it’s negotiated… a faux “peace with honor” Kissinger deal… or just walking, flying, driving, sailing the fuck out of those two screwed up countries and either letting the State Department and NGOs work with them or just letting them flow back to the 12th century and good riddance to bad rubbish.
Karzai and the leader du jour in Iraq are not worth either another American dollar or life from now until the end of time. Sadly, i think they’ll get both because we can’t seem to just “walk away” from the “fight”. It’s bad PR you know.
Well, there’s no oil, no strategic value, and the terrorists have all moved to Pakistan. Only reason left is to prove Obama’s a Stong Leader!
Boxturtle (Or possibly to prove that Hillary has balls)
But, but, … Karzai was carefully vetted by a great American back in 2002.
He (or anyone else) can’t do that because we purposefully undermined any chance for a strong central government from the beginning…and we’re still doing it. You cannot pursue two contradictory strategies and expect success; moreover, for as long as pretty much everyone is armed, Afghanistan will not be able to afford the police/military necessary to have even the upper hand, much less a monopoly, on violence.
Not to mention that most of Afghanistan’s revenue has come from poppy farming for the last century or so. The US isn’t going to go for a sane system of integrating that into a framework that includes legal poppy farming. If the government collects taxes on opium, we’ll call them drug traffickers. If it doesn’t there won’t be any revenue. And we don’t have anything to replace that with (large-scale commodity agriculture ain’t gonna succeed along the US model, it just isn’t).
The Taliban and the warlords are only too happy to collect those taxes.
You know, it would be awful for the people in Afghanistan to have to return to the fifteenth century but on the other hand, other than the capital city they are already there. The reason we attacked Afghanistan in the first place was trumped up and had more to do with money and politics here than the plight of the people there. The Iraq war was pre-planned and it was always going to happen, the Afghanistan war was a knee jerk reaction and a distraction. Think of the health care system we could have if we had instead spent all of that money on something constructive as opposed to two expensive wars we can’t “win” in any real sense. And nobody has ever explained what we “win” if we did. They don’t hate us for our freedoms, they hate us because we bomb the shit out of them.
I think you’re overstating our influence. The Afgani’s do what we tell them when we point guns at them. They do what the taliban says when the taliban points guns at them. At all other times, they act in their own best interests. Sometimes those interests match ours. Sometimes they don’t.
Boxturtle (Obviously, the solution is to have more people pointing guns)
“You put the government on the spot when you even mention Vietnam. They feel embarrassed — you notice that?… It’s just a trap that they let themselves get into. … But they’re trapped, they can’t get out. You notice I said ‘they.’ They are trapped, They can’t get out. If they pour more men in, they’ll get deeper. If they pull the men out, it’s a defeat. And they should have known that in the first place. France had about 200,000 Frenchmen over there, and the most highly mechanized modern army sitting on this earth. And those little rice farmers ate them up, and their tanks, and everything else. Yes, they did, and France was deeply entrenched, had been there a hundred or more years. Now, if she couldn’t stay there and was entrenched, why, you are out of your mind if you think Sam can get in over there. But we’re not supposed to say that. If we say that, we’re anti-American, or we’re seditious, or we’re subversive…. They put Diem over there. Diem took all their money, all their war equipment and everything else, and got them trapped. Then they killed him. Yes, they killed him, murdered him in cold blood, him and his brother, Madame Nhu’s husband, because they were embarrassed. They found out that they had made him strong and he was turning against them…. You know, when the puppet starts talking back to the puppeteer, the puppeteer is in bad shape….”
Malcolm X
I’m surprised we haven’t Diem’ed Karzai. It’s probably coming.
As with Vietnam, our toolbox of idiocy seems to contain only two things: 1) more troops 2) off recalcitrant puppets.
Karzai knows he has the US over a
barrelpipeline– the TAPI pipepline, to be exact. The Taliban just want their fair cut, as they did when they controlled the government during a time when an earlier incarnation of the pipeline was proposed. Our dear Mr. Karzai was then representing Conoco Oil, for a piece of the action, natch.Why the US needs a 100k troops, another 150k private contractors, a substantial NATO force and another 100k Afghan troops to take on less than a couple of hundred Al Qaeda makes no sense whatsoever. Just ask General Petraeus.
TAPI, which has already been approved by the major players (including India) has to transit right through southern Afghanistan, particularly Khandahar. Hence the focus of Obama’s surge and the next big military campaign.
To paraphrase Deep Throat– follow the pipeline.
Hahahaha….too damn funny!!! The US interfered in Afghanistan, installed puppetmeister Karzai, and yet he has to publicly tell the world the US is interfering in Afghanistan?!?!? Good grief. What are the odds here Karzai? You think the US is going to invade a nation, and let those people select their own leader? You were the chosen one. Quit whining and suck up to Uncle Sammy before he accidentally has collateral damage at your home.
Not factually complete. The French were deeply entrenched until the Japanese took over (Greater Japan Co-Prosperity Sphere, I believe), and when the French tried to return after WW II, the Vietnamese were not having the deposed overlords return.
Then wouldn’t it be cheaper to pay them off, and the pipeline could get built, than shooting at them?
The current process does not even seem to be ablle to build the pipeline. Noting like building stuff while being shot at, does wonders for the critical path.
Both acts of aggression were done because neither of those two nations had a snowball’s chance in hell of putting up any kind of major military fight. Insurgency is their only defense, and that will never end. So there is the catch 22. Obama, and even the Republicans, basically say that the “wars” will end when all this violence stops. But the violence won’t stop while the west has the military there. Even if/when US leaders pretend to withdraw, there will still be thousands of GI’s there for the next several decades, just like anywhere else Uncle Sam invaded. The problem is, when it’s not in the public’s eye, then it is virtually ignored. If it’s ignored by the American people, politicians will do whatever they please, and lie about what is going on. Since the election of Obama, is the “war in Iraq” still going on? You wouldn’t know it by the media or the anti-war movement.
And if he can’t join the Taliban, he can always be a short-order fry cook, what with that whole hat thing he’s got goin’ on…
Three tons of heroin. Pick up!
to Mason and Loo Hoo:
The reason our treasures are being spent in Afganistan is because Barack Hussien Obama said thats were the fight should be (remember his campaign?)and the reason thing are a mess here is because of his administration and congress are naive and disfunctional. You probably supported both, so I’m not sure what all the whining is about?
What is the exact point of this pathetic thread?
We are illegal occupiers of Afghanistan, committing human rights atrocities on a daily basis.
Again, what is the ‘larger’ point of this rant?
Point? We have to stick with Karzai as our puppet, because we originally went in there to get Al Keeda, only we kinda sorta got the GPS mixed up and went into Iraqisatan first to get WMD..err..Saddam…err…to install dumbocracy and McDonalds. So we was sidetracked, but are now back surging in Afghanistan, to get rid of the evile Taliban, cuz our dear leaders never said it was about Al Keeda (cuz you ain’t posed to remember) and now it’s come full circle to the installing of dumbocracy in Afghanistan. Is that clear? If it is, explain it to me. Just seems every American politician spouts so much bullshit, that it’s hard to keep track of the excuses.
He’s not just our puppet anymore. He’s turning into a full-fledged, blood-drenched dictator. Al Maliki and Allawi, too.
The little darlings grow up so fast! (sniff…)
(snort, snort) and, “… unlimited refills.”
Just another corrupt US stooge going rogue. Just like so many times before.
Karzai Shmarzai. The whole AfPack war is stupid, expensive, illegal and immoral. Get the fuck out!
Then wouldn’t it be cheaper to pay them off, and the pipeline could get built, than shooting at them?
That’s about 34% of Afghan’s entire GDP, sans the drug trade, from which the Karzai Cartel makes a pretty penny, too.
shades of Vietnam. Corrupt leaders who steal elections-check. Enemy who fights a successful guerilla war-check. Multiple coups-ummm, not yet. A corrupt puppet who decides to cut the strings-check.(elected?) Crooks who are stealing the money given by the US-check. Home to a major heroin crop that we elect to not destroy-check(see the golden triangle, Vietnam/Thailand area)-some(besides me) believe that we actually participated in shipping morphine base (preheroin) out of Vietnam on Air America planes-which we did. I flew on some Air America flights to HK, Oz(term for Australia) and Taiwan, sitting/sleeping on top of large blocks-way too big to call them bricks- of morphine base, upon arrival customs never bothered to come to the A/C. I entered most SE Asia countries this way, never having had a passport (A friend and I drove his car from Oslo Norway to his new base in Turkey-this was in 1972-[I took a 30 day leave from my base in US, and using the embassy run flew to Norway and 25 days later caught another AF flight from Turkey back to my base] only had US military ID card, never had any problems at any borders, I ASSUMED that a US military ID card was equal to a passport as that was all I had back in SE Asia in 70/71) But, since Air Americia did in fact fly morphine base out of Vietnam/Golden Triangle-AA for those who don’t know was a CIA owned and run airline, at that time it was also the biggest airline in SE Asia-So, since we are leaving the Afghanistan poppy crops alone-and why we don’t just pay the farmer the going rate(or a few $$ more)and then burn the crops is beyond me-are we then(thru our ever friendly CIA-perhaps now known as Blackwater air?)flying the drugs out to world pipelines? I, being curious, would like to know if the CIA is in fact involved with Blackwater air-which I would know nothing about if not for a piece on a crash that was recently on 60 min.
Like I said, considering what we did in Vietnam, I have to wonder if CIA is back to their tricks once more
Karzai hasn’t outlived his usefulness by f*cking with the money yet. Peons and flunkies can publicly posture for the benefit of credulous marks all they want until that happens…After which, America or some other power acting on behalf of multinational konzerns will get busy spreading ‘freedom’.
Of course…If one doesn’t take into account the fact that it connects East, South, West and Central Asia and has been a target of conquest and control since 3 centuries before Jesus was born. Trifling matter, that.
;>)
The “reason” the US went into Afghanistan was, just after 11 Sep. 2001, the US demanded bin Laden’s head from the ruling Taliban.
They, innocently, asked, why do you believe bin Laden is responsible for 11 Sep. 2001. Prove it. (This was before the “allies” found the tape where bin Laden admits responsibility at a dinner party, mid-November, I believe)
The US then said, ef you, we are invading. (I guess proof would have blown a lot of covers).
You should pay attention.
Thank you for setting the record straight on that particular ridiculous statement.
Karzai was hand picked by the Cheney regime. How can anyone be surprised at his base corruption and treachery?