Read Michael Cohen’s piece on this. You can see its antecedents in an exchange we had a couple weeks ago. So not to belabor the point, but if Michael wants to know why there isn’t more liberal outrage over Afghanistan — and by which he means more liberal institutional outrage, I gather — here are some suggestions that he doesn’t really get into. (I am not going to contest the premise that there has been liberal “silence” on Afghanistan, since what Michael basically means is that there’s too little liberal outrage around it, and that’s a subjective judgment. Draw your own conclusions, your mileage may vary, etc.)
1. The international legitimacy of the Afghanistan war, provoked by al-Qaeda’s attack on the United States and officially sanctioned by the United Nations and waged by NATO. This ain’t the Iraq war, in other words, so while the wisdom of the strategy may be questionable, the driver of outrage present in much of the Iraq debate doesn’t apply.
2. From a top-line perspective, there’s a lot of other agenda items closer to the liberal project that have clogged the document, be they the economic recovery or health care reform or climate or civil liberties, etc.
3. I can’t really prove this in any rigorous way, but my suspicion is that the media oxygen surrounding Iraq from 2003 to 2008 has led the public to largely perceive of the Afghanistan war as in some sense re-starting in late 2008-early 2009. Rethink Afghanistan recently did a push to fight against that erroneous perception. But their efforts speak to a vague sense in which a war in Year Nine somehow doesn’t feel as long or as stalemated as it actually is. But I fully concede that I haven’t proven my contention.
4. July 2011. Despite the Obama administration’s formulation of July 2011 as the beginning of a conditions-based transference of security responsibility to the Afghans, there is no shortage of ambiguity about what July 2011 will mean in practice, either in the U.S. or in the region. At a panel at CNAS’s annual conference yesterday, Paul Pillar argued to make “meaningful” troop withdrawals starting on that date, while Ryan Crocker, Richard Fontaine, David Barno and Ashley Tellis took it for granted that the troop reductions would be superficial. Still, the fact that there’s a date out there that signals some sort of reduction in military burden probably helps lower the temperature of public discourse. (Although I wonder how much the low-information voter even knows about July 2011.)
5. The lack of a political fight over Afghanistan. Republicans have either backed the strategy or acquiesced to it. The absence of partisan bickering means the more-ubiquitous media outlets don’t treat Afghanistan as a contentious issue. (Yes, this is a structural failure of contemporary journalism.) From the liberal perspective, it would be a tendentious to ignore that liberals are just going to be less likely to get into a heated rage over a president from the Democratic Party. That’s neither a defense nor an accusation that liberals are intellectually dishonest people, just a recognition that human beings have a natural tendency to be harder on the Other Fellow than One of Us. (FDL and Glenn Greenwald try very hard to push back against that tendency.)
I could go on, but I get the impression that Michael is less interested in the descriptive question than he is in making the normative case that liberals ought to break with the Obama administration over Afghanistan. And that would be the piece I’d prefer to read, with an alternative Afghanistan strategy laid out. My belief, as everyone here knows, is that a counterinsurgency-based strategy is the least-bad approach on offer to secure U.S. interests in Afghanistan against al-Qaeda and its affiliates. But I’m open to alternatives that make more sense.
See also Tim Fernholz and Andrew Exum. Brian Katulis snarks at Exum on Twitter but I’m not honestly sure why.



38 Comments
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I think your point on “partisan”-izing Afghanistan is a very salient one. Basically, the situation is too fucked up for their to be clear sides with liberal or conservative leaning on either, at least in sensible terms. I mean, there will always be idealists who don’t support any military action of any sort, but pulling out immediately isn’t a realistic option, and most liberal intellectuals realize that. Also, you bring up a good point about the Right– THEIR position on Afghanistan isn’t even clear to me. Everyone’s silent on it, which maybe means that with the right effort behind it, if anyone even wanted to take it on, it could be “marketed” as a bipartisan-type thing.
I realize these observations are a bit disjointed and without total linkage, but I don’t feel like getting into it right now. This is a good discussion though, but like you said, could use a bit of a lens-shifting.
Iraq and Afghanistan are just two reasons why the difference between the major parties is so vanishingly small as to become irrelevant. There are others of course but in the issue of war and the military/industrial complex, there is no light between them whatever.
I completely agree. Bring ALL us personnel home today!
Absolutely!
TROOPS
HOME
NOW
One of the reasons I voted for Ohrama was because he said he would reasonably draw down troops from Afghanistan and Iraq. I think he’s had more than a reasonable period. That place is such a clusterfuck in twenty years it won’t be any better.
Use of the term “U.S. interests” meaning what then? What are these “interests” we Americans seem to find or place in these faraway places?
If one goes back to the late 19th century these “American interests” took us into places like the Philippines where we screwed the Filipinos out of their democratic inclinations and showed the Japanese how Empire got done brutally and with no mercy.
The Japanese learned well. See WW2.
American “interests” abroad here in early 21st century still seem much more about American militarism and a Pentagon that practices political power in WashingtonDC that has little to do with any democracy.
This American Empire is good for some Americans clear to see. But for a great many more it is a burden that crushes American possiblities,dreams and hopes.
What Americans did in Vietnam or Iraq and now are doing in Afghanistan did not or does not make American civilization,culture or society better.
Cut the Pentagon budget and force structure down by one half. Then cut the Pentagon budget by a third again. Shut down American military bases until we are down to only 25 abroad. That means about 700 less.
Eliminate the CIA. There has been little real or actual “intelligence” coming out of the CIA for decades since WW2 ended.
Barack Obama being the political coward he is will do none of this.
Dump Barack Obama in 2012. He is a fraud. Sold Americans out. He is polishing what George Bush left after eight years in the WH. American interests? Obama is not interested. See his HCR sellout. His torture sell out. His indifference to good government and governance.
Who is tracking down the WikiLeaks guy? George Bush? No. Barack Obama’s Pentagon is.
This is Obama’s idea of American “interests” being served?
For me, a lot of it is a sort of resignation. Like the doomed Titanic, we see the iceberg, but in spite of all the bells, whistles, screaming to change course, jumping up and down with crossed fingers, there’s not a damn thing that’s gonna stop the event.
And a growing realization that we do not have a decent functioning Constitutional government that does what is was written up to do.
I’m not feeling all that optimistic these days.
chilling
Uh, maybe there are some of us thoughtful liberals who think the President is pursuing the right course? Considered that possibility? Well, I am one of them.
“There has been little real or actual “intelligence” coming out of the CIA for decades since WW2 ended”
The CIA did not even exist until after WWII ended.
“Slightly over a year and a half after the creation of the CIG-on 25 July 1947-the Congress, utilizing most of the features of this Executive Order, passed the National Security Act of 1947 creating the Central Intelligence Agency.”
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol2no1/html/v02i1a01p_0001.htm
Their lives don’t matter. They might as well be aliens from another planet. Seriously. “Liberals” for the most part, just aren’t all that big on helping the poor and the powerless unless they would have to see them every day. Libs don’t want to see them on the street corners, otherwise they don’t exist and don’t matter.
Which is just another way of saying those wedding parties had better start making a detour through your neighborhood if they don’t want to get massacred by drones. Liberals are kinder, gentler Replublicans. Mostly. Sometimes anyway. The fact of the matter is that they are some of the poorest, weakest people on the planet. Easy targets, and far enough away you can justify the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people to defeat an organization that consists of what, maybe 1k people and that mostly don’t come from Afghanistan? It keeps the blood money flowing and you don’t have to look at the consequences.
A rhetorical question, given you already know the answer. What makes money in America? Fraud, jails and wars for profit/resources. Our exports are, um… ??? Right! Gulf oil, heading Europe’s way!
We keep doing these things because they are so damn profitable for a nation with nothing much to offer the world outside of displays of force. Even now, friends I know have gone to work on military projects because they pay, and they’ll hire experienced people who need a decent income.
Let’s challenge ourselves to discover something we can export which the rest of the world needs, and that cannot be made more cheaply by near-slave labor elsewhere, or duplicated by unscrupulous people overseas (or here at home who prefer foreign lucre to homegrown).
On a personel level, I can only say I voted for Obama in spite of his stated position on Afghanistan, knowing that a “withdraw now” stance would be attacked as “weak on National Security” and a major impediment to winning.
Sadly, Afghanistan seems to be the only issue on which he told the truth. Any attempt at serious drawdown before 2012 will be met with the same accusations and become a serious obstacle to re-election.
In other words, the stance on Afghanistan is entirely political and has little to do with what is actually occuring there.
are you still embracing the canard that AQ is in Afghanistan, and is it your contention that we are there for the establishment pushed purposes?
Oops. Wrong thread. But the comment still applies. We have no exports. What in god’s name do people believe corporations in the United States do to make a buck these days? Knit?
We export war precisely because it is so profitable, and now, other than fraud, we have little else to offer the world, it seems.
Ending these wars is going to be difficult at best.
It’s more than that, it’s geopolitical. Russia, Iran, and oil.
I have noticed that Democrats, when confronted with the ‘high taxes impede job creation, lower the taxes’ meme coming from the R’s, can never get themselves to state the obvious. Yes, lower tax rates allow investors to make job creating investments, – in China!
With apologies to Pink Floyd:
The database is in your head
The database is in your head
Playing war games and daisy chains of blasts
Got to keep the sheeple on the path
The database is on your bed
The database is on your bed
The paper tells you of their penchant to devour
And every day the internet tells more
SIGH. It’s well known that we went to war in Afghanistan and Iraq to make money in one fashion or another. That is what the USA DOES anymore, and as some prior posts indicate, that’s about all that we “produce” on our land (as in: the dirt encompassed by our borders) anymore.
It was spearheaded by the war-mongers and hawks, in particular the Bush and Cheney clans, plus their assorted hangers-on, like Rove and Wolfowitz, etc. But we know that the Clintons love ‘em some war, too, as do many other Dems who get their payola from Big Daddy WarBuck$$$.
Why am I “silent” about it? In answer to another prior post, I have traveled and lived in numerous third world countries, albeit not Iraq and Afghanistan specifically but close enough. So I definitely DO have a “feel” for the people there, as well as what their lifestyle and standards of living are. And thinking about the killing going on, fwiw, makes me sick, tired, horrified… well, whatever bleeding heart liberal emotion one wants to pull out of one’s butt – that’s how I feel.
I’m just out of ??? steam? ideas? anger? outrage? I don’t know what to do. Since I’ve been old enough to know anything, it’s been readily apparent that this nation kills people for profit. I can say that I’ve done a lot of boots on the ground protesting both here and abroad; I can say that I’ve taught seminars and workshops; I can say that I’ve written articles and tried to educate various citizens of numerous countries; I can say that I’ve written letters, donated money, apologized foreigners (Isabelle Allende being one), and so on.
And so: now what? Have I made ANY kind of difference? ANY at all? I have no idea. I suppose Big Daddy WarBuck$$$ has had his way with me because quite honestly, I’m sh** out of ideas at this stage. I effen have no clue.
I could go on & on, but I’ll stop there.
I heard BHO loud & clear on the campagin trail stating that he intended to increase troops in Afghanistan and to use drones in Pakhistan. I was not happy, but I had a tiny ray of *hope* that he’d “draw down” the troops within a “reasonable time frame.” Well, BHO LIED about that, as he LIED about so many other things. It seemed as if the choice was between LYING Mr. Obama or Mr. BombBombBombIran McCain. And so, what to do???
If anyone has a better idea, I’m wide open to suggestions. I suspect that many liberals are like me (perhaps without some of the direct travel experience), and out of guilt, shame, horror, anger, sorrow, frustration, etc, are, like me, sitting here going: what CAN I reasonably do at this point??? WHAT? Big Daddy WarBuck$$$ ain’t listening to me, and that’s for sure.
And so: on it goes….
“Use of the term ‘U.S. interests’ meaning what then?”
It means that some people, a relatively small group, are making or are going to make megabucks by using federal power to create or maintain a profitable situation.
Indeed, and be aware that’s what’s happening right now. No, I’m not happy about that either. And so: on it goes…
No, we’re the clusterfuck, Afghanis are the “collateral damage.” God help them. If re-incarnation is a fact, I hope anyone who is responsible for the hideous destruction of that nation, starting with Zbigniew Kazimierz Brzezinski and James Earl Carter, get to spend their next lives living the pain they’ve imposed on others. And you can throw in Kissinger, while you’re packing bags. No shortage of emigrants, really.
Whoa! What if this country is one of the worst destinations? Boy, that thought just occurred.
Congresspeople can get some really good inside deals on investments. Why screw with a lucrative side game.
I was going to say that The New Republic is among the biggest warmongers of anyone. But Cohen beat me to it.
But around here the outrage against these phony wars is quite loud and proud. But it may not be “liberal” outrage. Some of us may be beyond liberal. As far as Afghanistan being justified that is more and more doubtful. Chimpie did have war plans against the Taliban before Sept. 11, 2001.
Another reason:
Afghanistan is wrongly viewed as a “just” or “good” war. The pitiful rationalization was that this was where the 9-11 attacks were mostly funded and plotted with the assistance of the extant ruling Afghan party, the Taliban. For a U.S. “liberal” to speak out against a “good” war is to invite being branded as a traitor and/or a wimp.
The glorification of and profiteering from war makes want to vomit. Let me rephrase that: war makes me want to vomit.
Well, I see there is not going to be any rational discussion on this thread. Ta ta folks.
The warmongers learned their lesson from the Vietnam War. It is not effective fighting against “liberal” think tanks and advocacy organizations that oppose the war profiteers. It is easier and simpler to buy them off and get them in the “Veal Pen”.
The K-street PR Firms, SAIC, and probaly half the legacy “journalists” have been paid off by Total Information Awareness or whatever the current name is. “Mockingbirds”, Dee Cee journalists who are really CIA journalists has been an established insitution for decades. When Pete Peterson is not advocating euthanasia for all the old and in the way elderly, he has been trying to get a “Corporation For Public Diplomacy”. We can assume there is some sort of CPD. That is taxpayers are funding the war propaganda to persuade taxpayers more war is needed.
Very simply, do not believe anyone in Washington DC who promotes the “establishment” and its wars.
You make me smile.
I suppose most have read Peter Beinart’s “The Failure of the American Jewish Establishment”
for those who somehow missed it:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/jun/10/failure-american-jewish-establishment/
Institutional outrage? There wouldn’t be a veal pen if there were such a creature.
As for breaking with Obama and the Democrats, been there done that a long time ago.
This is just plain goofy. As someone asked, what interests? As someone else asked, what al Qaeda in Afghanistan? Or are you arguing that the Taliban is an “affiliate” of al Qaeda? And even if you could tell us what US interests exist in Afghanistan, I seriously doubt that you could offer even one scrap of evidence that this “letting generals play war” COIN strategy has advanced even one of them.
Great article. The NY Review of Books is beyond my unemployed means at the moment.
Our interest in not having large and secure training camps for transnational terrorists operating in the open and with the approval of the de facto Afghan government.
That sort of interest.
I oppose the AffPack war because its war. It upsets me that my country’s capital is the seat of a brutal empire. An empire that pursues its advantage by killing and torturing people. I’m past outrage. And I know I’m not alone.
Michael Cohen reports in the piece that a lot of progressives simply support the effort. So I’m not really sure what it is he’s trying to figure out. When an ideological movement is divided on an issue, it’s not going to be able to mount a very powerful effort at resistance on it. If the question is why a good part of the Left holds the position it does, well that’s just the debate that’s been going on in places like this, Cohen’s own digs, and places like it for eighteen months and more. The phenomenon he’s trying to explain is really just a reposing of the substantive debate that has gone on and continues to among progressives.
The US has no interests in Afghanistan. All we have there is liabilities.
All we have there is a history of mistakes, starting with the original mistake of snatching defeat, by sending in US ground troops, from the jaws of the victory that the Afghan anti-Taliban coalition had already gained without any of our ground troops. All that we’ve done since then has been to double down, over and over again, on that original mistake.
We don’t have any real interests in Afghanistan. What our continued involvement there has come down to is the incredibly foolish project of maintaining some pretense for the domestic electorate that we didn’t make that huge mistake in 2002 of sending in ground troops. It’s obvious to everyone else in the world that this was a mistake, so, no, there is not the shadow of any need to maintain an appearance of strength before a supposedly credulous world, so that we will be respected and feared, or whatever sawed-off Machiavellian ends people might delude themselves we are accomplishing. The weakest possible appearance to project in the world is to be seen to persist in folly and error out of the fear of appearing a fool by admitting the error. We’re still in Afgnaistan solely because no one wants to face the domestic political consequences of no longer pretending that our involvement was ever anything but a mistake.
Your belief that the war in Afghanistan has international legitimacy needs to be challenged in the court of public opinion and not in the liberal self-congratulatory pornography of the New Republic. Any human being ( who is not a sociopath) seeing the truth about war would not wish war on any country: You don’t have to look, you don’t have to see the realities of war. Keep it all abstract, intellectual, political, sociological, like a weather report.
Or maybe you will have real courage and open your eyes:
Http://web.mac.com/ctb3
Your reasons, logic, and arguments are wrong, though there may be some truth along the fuzzy edges. Your bullet list seems in large part more like not so subtle arguments in favor of a few wars (or at least one or more good wars – to balance out one or more bad wars).
That particular war is almost 10 years old and nothing is going to stop it other than the CIC with the input from their advisors.
I think protest would be best, but it won’t stop the various wars. Outrage is OK and all, but master Yoda and other would advise against that.
There are geo-political, tactical, and “hearts-and-minds” items – but that is another matter.
There is also war finance, and opportunity cost to consider – being reasons why the big occupying wars are hurting the US pretty hard. Seems like they should save $/lives/hate by stopping the big wars, and just keep up their assasinations and targeted things (that they will not give up, and that are already going on now along with the big wars).
Big occupations are also a catch-22 for staying in a territory with an occupation rather than having bases in strategic allies (which are less likely to host if the US has the image problem of the big wars). I guess the UN will declare drone invasions an act of war 20 years from now – but lots can change in the meantime, and its seem like the current influence would want to prevent that (what air attacks? you mean smart bombs against high-value targets?).