If we’re not willing to accept the fact that civilians are going to be killed in war – and that lives will be upturned by the determination that our perceived interests in southern and eastern Afghanistan trump those of local civilians – then we have no business fighting this war in the first place. This isn’t intended as a dig on Spencer (who I’m sure understands this) but there is something frustrating about the way we seem to talk about civilian casualties in Afghanistan as if our very presence and our very decision to go to war is not a fundamental part of civilian suffering in Afghanistan.
I’ll meet halfway, because I suspect Michael and I don’t actually disagree here. Yes, the U.S. deciding to continue to prosecute the war will mean civilians will unfortunately die. Anyone who considers the war to be in the national interest, like myself (with caveats), must carry that recognition as fundamental in the name of basic intellectual honesty. No aspect of that recognition mitigates the U.S.’s obligation to minimize civilian casualties with all due effort. Indeed, to take rigorously the idea that civilian casualties will a major factor influencing the Afghan people’s “decisive” perspective on which coalition — Karzai’s or the Taliban’s — better secures their interests, then minimizing casualties becomes a strategic objective in the war.
Here’s where those who base their opposition to the war its promotion of human suffering have to meet halfway as well. If the U.S. stops prosecuting its end of the war, civilian casualties will not end. What will end is the civilian casualties we directly cause. The Taliban-led coalition will continue its insurgency until victory or negotiation, with all the acceleration of civilian casualties that will entail. (I would think it’s likely that the Taliban would greet an abrupt U.S. withdrawal, in the absence of a capable Afghan security apparatus, as a disincentive to negotiate, since its coalition will perceive itself to be winning. Negotiations would become a venue for the Karzai government to capitulate.) It’s additionally possible that Afghans will consider a U.S. withdrawal to constitute abandonment, and then hold the U.S. responsible for the casualties that the Taliban-led coalition subsequently induce.
Now, you can argue that such a circumstance ultimately benefits the U.S. national interest better than an indefinite, bloody and expensive war. Or you can argue that the counterinsurgents are wrong, and while civilian casualties are to be avoided in general, they don’t have strategic implications. But you can’t simply argue that a U.S. withdrawal comes with a pony for every Afghan citizen, since that overlooks the United Nations’ documented increase in the proportion of civilian casualties for which the Taliban are responsible. (This isn’t intended as a dig on Michael, who I’m sure understands this.) These are hard choices, without easy answers. A recognition of that doesn’t diminish the obligation to choose, but we should reject simplicity from whomever offers it and for whatever purpose.



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Complete non-sequitor. The casualties happen, in theory, because the United States leadership has concluded that it is an American national security imperative to fight the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan. If, at some point, the Leadership later concluded that, on balance, it is better for American national security to cease military operations in that country. If at that point the other parties continue to kill each other, it is irrational and clearly inaccurate to say that the US has any responsibility for those civilian deaths.
There are lots of civilian casualties in Somalia. The presence of enough US military forces could reduce those casualties – the US is not, however, responsible for them if we choose not to deploy those forces. The deaths in Darfur or Congo are similarly the responsibility of the killers, not those who chose, for whatever reason, not to intervene on their behalf.
In the larger view, you’re right that if a nation deploys it’s forces in a conflict, you’re going to break things and hurt people – that’s just the nature of the beast. It’s also logical to assume that if you kill enough civilians and break enough of their stuff, they are going to resist you, some violently.
But Afghanistan is not our country. We are not the Afghan government, so if the insurgency against the government continues after our forces are withdrawn, we cannot be reasonably held responsible for them. Whether there is an ethical component is a different conversation that would have to include both the lives we took while involved in the conflict as well as the lives that were take by others after we pulled out…
mikey
Can you please cite evidence of someone who opposes the war arguing that the Taliban won’t cause casualties after we leave, or more importantly, arguing that every Afghan gets a pony? I think you might have just pulled this out of your ass. Thanks!
Touch a nerve?
Put it this way: I’d like to see more emphasis from critics of the war on what the consequences of ending it would actually be without a developed Afghan security sector or in advance of a negotiated settlement with the insurgency. Or, alternatively, a recognition that there will be human consequences from a continued insurgency post-withdrawal but that such a thing is ultimately preferable from the perspective of the national interest. If you’ve seen those already written, I’d be grateful for the links. Alternatively, if you write them, you’ll be doing your side quite a service.
I’m not quite sure what you’re asking for here. You want someone to say that after we leave, the Taliban will still kill people? Who is saying otherwise? I understand that you may not have read what you’re looking for specifically, “absent a developed security sector” and so forth, but you’re implying that someone out there is suggesting something completely different, that the Afghans will all be safe and peaceful the minute we leave. Who is saying this?
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen this mythical anti-war activist whose only concern is that we’re killing Afghans. I know that’s one concern, but there’s also the cost, the troops, everything else.
If someone on “my side” is saying this, point it out, and it can be dealt with. But from what I see, you’re defining a whole group out of ignorance. It seems it’s only “your side” talking about ponies and zero dead Afghans.
And yes, it did actually touch a nerve. I count myself as a “fan” of Attackerman, and I’ve written several times in your defense when it comes to ideological purity tests and folks questioning your progressivism.
I understand that you believe there is a national interest in continuing the war. What I don’t understand is why, in line with your post, you don’t meet us halfway. Why do you seize on every opportunity to dump on those who question our policy in Afghanistan? It’s a pattern, from calling Steele a hippy to this crack about ponies.
Can you not at least show the peace movement the same respect you do for Sec Gates and ISAF press releases?
In what sense have I ever dumped on the peace movement? I don’t attack war critics, I try and deal with their arguments, because in many cases, they make good points. I saw your post on my Steele post, and dude — the “hippie” line was very obviously in jest, meant to kick Steele for echoing the very people he’s quick to demonize in other contexts. I truly do not understand why you’re offended by it and chalk it up to a misunderstanding.
But I don’t “seize on every opportunity to dump” on the peace movement. I don’t even criticize it that often. You can find some of the most prominent early coverage it’s received in my 2009 Washington Independent archives. Ask Robert Greenwald. I don’t dismiss it and I don’t attack it. I respect it, and however much I may disagree with it in this case, I don’t want to live in a world in which people who believe a war is in the U.S. interest demonize or scapegoat those who don’t. So I write that way. You will know when I attack something. From my perspective, if people want to attack me, fine. Those who support a war ought to bear a greater argumentative burden. Thanks for your defenses, but anyone who wants to question my progressivism because of Afghanistan is welcome to do so.
As for your substantive questions: I see evident simplicity in certain antiwar arguments, and if you really want me to name names, I will reluctantly do so. I do not see the recognition that you describe that the war will continue and many people will die if the U.S. ceases prosecution of the war before a capable Afghan security sector develops or a negotiated settlement with the insurgency can be achieved. You may believe this is essentially the peace movement marking those contentions as-read, and I have no reason or desire to doubt you. But perhaps you’ll consider that it doesn’t look like that to someone who may not share your perspective, and so to make your arguments stronger perhaps you’ll consider adjusting. That’s what I do when I learn that something I thought was obvious in what I write doesn’t appear that way to readers, and it’s always been helpful for me.
You might think it’s concern-trolling, but it’s not. Some of the most convincing arguments I’ve read against both the war and the prosecution of it have come from people like Gian Gentile or Gilles Dorronsoro or Michael Cohen, who start from the premises of war supporters and argue that on their own terms the war doesn’t make sense. That stuff causes me to rethink and adjust, FWIW.
It is the LOOOOOOOOONG WAR….SETTING UP YOUR JOKES HERE COMMENTERS!
Spencer is just joking with us. He knows this misadventure is an insane failure of imperialism.
Spencer is one of the very few people who support the American military presence in Afghanistan in something other than ideological terms, and for that reason alone his work is important. I disagree with him, and enjoy doing so, but I can tell you that he’s never disrespected me nor has he given anything but careful consideration to my arguments, and is the first to admit when he doesn’t have an answer to them.
Look now. Iraq was an easy call. The people that took the US into that lunatic bloodbath did so for reasons that had nothing to do with the international geopolitical situation, and no matter how the narrative has managed to wander to some kind of ‘success’ story, the criminality of aggressive war will always taint that endeavor. Afghanistan is murkier, and what was done in 2002 wasn’t necessarily or obviously wrong. The questions arise when it must be acknowledged that al Quaeda is out of Afghanistan, and the US smoothly and for what I contend are political, not strategic reasons, switched enemies to a disjoint local insurgency fueled to a large degree by the very American military presence ostensibly designed to defeat it.
In other words, to support Iraq is a first order category error, and to support the US presence in Afghanistan is much more supportable, if, again, ultimately counterproductive. But to attack Spencer as some kind of ideologue is clearly inaccurate, and reduces the argument once again to an ideological one, rather than a strategic or national interest one.
You’re either thinking about it or you’re spewing spittle. Whatchu got?
mikey
Apparently I won’t, because I did take your comments about Steele and the ponies as insulting toward the broader movement. I know you wouldn’t deliberately do that, but that’s the result. I get that it was a joke about Steele, but did you really need to drag in the anti-war crowd to do that?
Fair enough, I believe I, for one, have made it clear that there isn’t much of a happy ending. But at the risk of giving in to concern trolling (despite your assurances, I’m not entirely sure it isn’t), I think it’s worth exploring with more depth.
Totally agree, he’s not an ideologue. The sooner everyone else agrees with us, the sooner we can stop playing games about who has more liberal points and actually get down to solving problems.